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Yet A Other One....fake Or Real? Mexico 8 Reales 1821 Zs

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dohcollector's Avatar
Belgium
464 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2015  2:37 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dohcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
hello CCF

title says it all

i first wanted to add this here but I thought i'd better start a other thread for more views and toughts.

https://goccf.com/t/243944

i knew I had this piece because I repackeged and relabeld it 6 months ago,but never came around to realy look at it.So today I did
as I assumed it was a genuine piece , but after seeing plenty of fake pieces outthere I took a closer look
but now I have some worries about it being a possible fake.

8 reales
weight 26.8
size is 38 mm
silver
1821 Zs RG



Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs

Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs



there is a distinct die crack running under his buste
not that this bothers me just saying

Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs




Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs



this is what worries me the s in the mint is so strange looking but I found a similar looking one in a slab online

Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs

http://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/mexi...1325-62104.s

overlap

Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs



so now I'm in doubt
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Collects82's Avatar
United States
1316 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2015  4:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh cool! Another 1821 Zs. The placement of the bust's head way up in the letters is like mine. Keeping hope that SwamperBob will have time to look at the additional pics I posted. Fascinated to see what he has to say on yours too.
Valued Member
dohcollector's Avatar
Belgium
464 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2015  5:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dohcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen your beauty Collects.
just compared them and the heads position do look similar
but still I'm not 100% shure about this being genuine...i realy need a expet eye to say if this is the real deal.
i have't been collecting that long and with lack of catalogus and indepth information about the subject makes it hard to say for shure

so yeah I hope swamperbob will take a look at it, or any knowledgeble person for that matter :)

Edited by dohcollector
12/04/2015 5:05 pm
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jgenn's Avatar
United States
1156 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2015  5:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As swamperbob points out in the referenced thread, there should be a second overlap on the opposite side. dohcollector, please post a picture of the edge that is 180 degrees from the section of the edge that you have already shown us.
Valued Member
dohcollector's Avatar
Belgium
464 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2015  6:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dohcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
can you believe because of my bad englisch I did't even see that
although I did read that piece


nway I believe this to be the second overlap



Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs




Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2015  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The circles and squares look uniform to one another, good 180* overlap but they are applied in a wavy fashion 360* around - however this may be normal for the Zacatecas Mint.

Good weight and diameter.

We shall see ...

JPL
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2015  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
dohcollector Thank you for contacting me by email. That is the best way to get my attention.

The 1821 Zs issue was of course very large. It was also very popular with forgers and counterfeiters.

The overlaps look good for Zs in 1820-1821 - it does wobble a little compared to Mexico City. The design of the face dies is also correct. This same Portrait design is seen in Riddell however, so there is a need to be careful.

First weigh the coin - is should be within 0.25 grams of correct (26.75 grams or greater.

You should check Specific Gravity as well because of the color where the coin is worn. This could be oxidation if the coin was kept with paper containing sulfur, but check it out. I noticed that the coin has been cleaned - so I wonder why the wear points are not cleaner.

Post the results and I will comment further.

Of course I would say you need my book first of all. But since you are not English speaking it could pose a problem. Also unless you plan to collect a lot of these coins the cost $40 is not justified.

Valued Member
dohcollector's Avatar
Belgium
464 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2015  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dohcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Swaperbob

thank you for visiting my thread I'm realy happy in did't intrude with that mail but it was the only awy I knew how to get your attention,gladd it worked :)

so this is the story behind it .
they where part of a big collection I bought from a girlfriend of my niece.her grandfather had this collection for over 70 years.but for safekeeping he burried it in his garden.untill he got sick and had to got to hospital.so he gave it to his kin.but this girl knew notthing about them so she sold it off...to yours truely.

at that time I did not even collect, but that is a other part of the story. so all these coins where in old 2x2 with PVC plastic and rusted staples ...still got a few I did't unrap yet and need atribution still

examples
Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs

Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs

box they where kept in
Yet-A-Other-One....fake-Or-Real?-Mexico-8-Reales-1821-Zs


because of the coin being big ,the 2x2 older had 2 stapels at the cornerz and bacause of the the 2x2 was to big
so the plastic was right on the face rubbing his cheek and shield on the obverse.
both sides where very yellow at first, so I thought it was silver plaque.but once I got acetone on it the yellow seemd to disapear so I carefully cleaned the areas affected,not doing any harm?
hairlines and scratches where already on the coin.

and to be truthfull I have plenty of coins affected in the same spots because of this pvc damage.and flips being overly big for the coin.
Nhow thats is how I got them and that is how I think the damage has occurred in these spots.

but I have to ask not to take this as the final evidence thoug.


as for specific gravity I'm not shure how to respond to that because I'm not shure what you mean


and I can read english so I could read your book but to be honest I'm not going to collect these ,its even a fluke that I own it.
but now I'm getting a clear diretion of what I want to collect so this just might be to make funds for what I realy want to collect.


however I know my appreciation does not pay bills,i still want to express them :D
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2015  6:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The thick coins are often called "dumps" - many are from India. When cleaning with acetone do not rub the coins especially if they are dirty, the grit damages coins very easily.

Regarding Specific Gravity - there are several threads on this forum that cover SG in detail. It requires a good scale - not a cheap one. The difference between the weight of the coin immersed in water and the weight in air is the volume of the coin. The weight in air divided by volume is the density.
Rest in Peace
Parklane64's Avatar
United States
2668 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2015  02:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Parklane64 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"You are my density." - McFly
Valued Member
dohcollector's Avatar
Belgium
464 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2015  04:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dohcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
2 be honest that is realy completly new to me.
and I don't have a good scale too boot .
my scale only weighs to 0.1 grams.
so I probably will have to ow you the answer ...for now atleast.

will try to find the threads because gotte read up a bit first.




@Parklane

Me or Swamperbob ?
must be me,LOL :p

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2015  10:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Parklane64 meant the comment for me because I referenced the density of the metal. It is a quote from "Back to the Future".

Density has been used for over 200 years to detect forgeries. A coin can be the correct weight but still be a counterfeit if it is made a bit thicker than it should be. Checking density detects that. It takes less than a minute.
Valued Member
dohcollector's Avatar
Belgium
464 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2015  1:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dohcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yeah I got that tryed to make a joke but that did't work ...ether you guys have no sence of humor or my joke was bad...prolly the last haha

ohw and I took a trip to you tube so I think I know how to do the gravity test . just need a scale with 0.01 configuration.then I'm good to go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYdSEAm-7uI
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Collects82's Avatar
United States
1316 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2015  3:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Joke was great! Sense of humor of coin collectors can be as suspect as lawyers and CPAs however. :P
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