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PCGS Dilemma

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Pillar of the Community

Australia
599 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  03:57 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add echidna to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Would appreciate opinions thanks:

Coin is sold raw and "original".
Buyer immediately submits coin to PCGS.
PCGS grades very harshly and bodybags cleaned.
Unhappy owner then contacts seller who accepts the return and refunds.
Seller later re-submits same coin which now grades OK and in fact single finest graded.
Does the "unhappy owner" have any recourse at PCGS ?
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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16679 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  04:14 am  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS should have slabbed with "cleaned" on holder.
What am I missing?
Bodybag?
swcoin.ecrater.com
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 12/20/2015  04:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can that seller sue PCGS, sure if they really want to. However it would be a colossal waste of money and they would lose both money and time.
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Mayflower2020's Avatar
United States
624 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  06:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mayflower2020 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No. PCGS grades the coins how they see them. It's like an umpire at a baseball game. Sometimes they get the call wrong, the manager asks them to talk it over with the others, sometimes they do and reverse the call. But it doesn't change the fact that the buyer and seller agreed to a sale and agreed to a return/refund.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  06:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echidna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The analogy is correct Mayflower.
However PCGS can cancel a grade of any coin if they want and nothing can be done about it.
Without any reason and notification.
In terms of grading they are accountable to nobody.
And my experience is that they will cancel a grade if a big wealthy collector makes a complaint.
That is my concern.
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Edited by echidna
12/20/2015 07:20 am
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BH1964's Avatar
United States
10982 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  07:41 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...However PCGS can cancel a grade of any coin if they want and nothing can be done about it. Without any reason and notification...And my experience is that they will cancel a grade if a big wealthy collector makes a complaint.


Please share your experience. When a grade is "cancelled" then PCGS pays the owner of the coin for the loss, that is in their grading guarantee and it is not done "without reason or notification".

And being as grading is subjective there is no recourse with PCGS for the unhappy owner.
ANA #R3154474
Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  08:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echidna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its getting off the topic...
However - yes I've had a grade cancelled ostensibly on the whim of a wealthy collector.
While the coin was listed for sale the grade was cancelled simple.
No notification no email no reason no nothing.
The coin was bought by same wealthy collector and the grade was then reinstated.
I'm not going to supply the evidence here - this is a testimonial statement only.
But I could easily prove all this in a court of law.
I am NOT saying that said wealthy collector was out to defraud.
I believe he is very honest.
PCGS are at fault.
The point is that PCGS do cancel grades on the whim of wealthy collectors.
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Edited by echidna
12/20/2015 08:12 am
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trout1105's Avatar
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  09:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would think that if the buyer was unhappy with the grade and was confident that the coin was in fact NOT cleaned then He/she should have re submitted it themselves.
Obviously the seller was confident the coin would "Pass Muster" and it paid off to have PCGS have a fresh look at it.

I don't think anything "Underhanded" has occurred here, Simply a case of a PCGS grader getting it wrong on the day and the coin was sent back for a second opinion
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Mayflower2020's Avatar
United States
624 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mayflower2020 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did not know that about PCGS. Is the same true for the other services, or at least are there instances where this happens as often?
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edweather's Avatar
United States
7375 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Body bagged to single finest graded? Wealthy collector getting grades cancelled and reinstated at a whim? Not saying this doesn't happen, but you are asking us to believe a lot at just your word without evidence.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  09:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echidna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
edweather
In answer to your post:
yes
yes
If someone wants to see evidence just contact me directly.

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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  09:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
However - yes I've had a grade cancelled ostensibly on the whim of a wealthy collector.
While the coin was listed for sale the grade was cancelled simple.
No notification no email no reason no nothing.
The coin was bought by same wealthy collector and the grade was then reinstated.
I'm not going to supply the evidence here - this is a testimonial statement only.
But I could easily prove all this in a court of law.


I'm sorry but Ill go ahead and say it, no one is going to believe this with 0 evidence provided.

Grades don't get cancelled because something was regarded differently.

I've had issues with their error coin service and will no longer use it, however you're trying to make us believe a company with billions of dollars of coins graded decided a wealthy collector was more important than the company and all that money with no evidence provided. Not going to happen.

Grades change, its why people crack things out and resubmit them if they don't agree and they're confident they're right. Doesn't mean anything nefarious is going on. If the same coin was put in front of you a couple times months apart with thousands of coins in between you'd almost certainly give it different grades on the different appearances. Plus or Minus one grade either way where there isn't a massive value jump happens a lot in grading from everyone, occasionally things get details grades that shouldn't have and vice versa.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
599 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  09:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echidna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Grades don't get cancelled because something was regarded differently" - wrong.

However its not appropriate to post names etc on this forum.
Contact me directly if you want evidence.
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Edited by echidna
12/20/2015 10:16 am
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  10:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not wrong and getting something re-graded and the grade changing isn't even close to what you're implying.
Edited by basebal21
12/20/2015 10:07 am
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KenKat's Avatar
United States
4085 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  10:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is why you buy the coin and not the holder. PCGS is just basically one more source (albeit with A LOT of experience) giving their opinion of a grade. It's still just an opinion. Too much weight is given to the grade in the holder - as if PCGS or one of the others has proclaimed from down on high and now that's that end of story. It's still just a guy or a couple of guys with an opinion. Are those opinions flawed sometimes? Sure, they are. Is there a possibility of politics with third party grading companies which are at the end of the day businesses who want to make money? I think that question answers itself.

I understand why what happened seems wrong, and it may be - but if I thought it was a beautiful coin, I wouldn't give two licks for what PCGS thought about it. The original buyer was playing "the slab game" and it didn't end in his favor. That's the breaks sometimes.
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CopperCastle's Avatar
United States
1132 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2015  10:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CopperCastle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS has horrible customer service (as many CCF users can and have attested). Why give your money to a service that conducts business in the manner even you have outlined in your original post?

If you want it to change, take your money to a competitor. Only by taking a hit to their bottom line will we ever see results. Continued use of their services are only encouraging & reinforcing the practices they have in place.
Edited by CopperCastle
12/20/2015 11:01 am
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