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 Replies: 78 / Views: 17,308 |
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
566 Posts |
It is interesting, that the head of the king was obviously important as only one piece is not showing it.
This might suggest, that the leftovers (these pieces we have here) were still ment for circulation, maybe the cuts were melted for some purpose, rather than change.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Just a thought - maybe the Moderator of this forum can send this thread to Baldwins. Where are all the great West Indies Collections sold - Baldwins. Do they have an opinion?
JPL
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Valued Member
 China
106 Posts |
The supplementary evidence from realswather shows clearly that this kind of coin always exsits in the numismatics market, but do not noticed.
I think the reason why is that who clipping the coins is lack of authority.In other words, the sheik or the ruler who gives the order for making this do not get recognized by other countries esspecially the suzerain. But this clipping coins was highly adopted by the local people in N.afric for daily circulation.
I think this field deserve much more research on it.That's very interesting.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
nicolashsing You say: Quote:
The supplementary evidence from realswather shows clearly that this kind of coin always exsits in the numismatics market, but do not noticed. I believe you are saying that there is now clear evidence that the cut down Portrait coins always existed but were just unnoticed. I do not agree that one example of a Charles IIII 8R and one Pillar 8R with similar cuts has any great meaning at all. They are at this point just clipped (damaged) coins. There are no Charles III portrait coins other than the coins in this series of ebay auctions of 22 coins from France. The cut cobs are well known and they coincide much better with Spanish occupation than the later Charles III portrait issues. The weight and SG as well as edge pictures are still needed to prove anything about the nature of the coins themselves.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Found another (2) - perfect examples of what I've been referring to... and coinworldtv, they came from you back in 2012 and 2013 (via the Worthpoint archive). Do you happen to have the original pics somewhere? I know you always show an edge pic or two... Even better, any records about where they originated out of? (1) Potosi 1766 cob 8R cut down to 15.98g: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ky-477375876(2) 1780-87 Lima 8R (can tell from assayer MI, as you recorded), cut in like fashion to the ones here... clipped to 15.94g: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...les-31832882========= Totally unrelated, saw this while searching... Bob and John (maybe you've seen it... or OK, Bob probably owns it)... a "2 bits" quarter-cut of an 8 Reales... except it's from what appears to be a contemporary counterfeit: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...al-237838548 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Maybe that 1787 realeswatcher is proving your point QUITE NICELY - the coin description - a counter-marked West Indies type - and that's where EVERYBODY's brain stops functioning ... is it something else?
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
I never pursued cut pieces - in my West Indies days I just considered them JUNK. I guess I still do - you won't see any cut pistareens in my new coin venture of Pistareen CC's.
IMO - they are beginner coins ... but these here in this post - this is indeed something DIFFERENT due to their shapes ... if some historical link can be found. However - yes where are those edge shots. Genuine West Indies pieces have a diagnostic cut edge ... can't really describe it - easy to spot modern and period pieces this way ... I assume when China gets these coins from France we will have some pics ... ?
JPL
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Valued Member
China
106 Posts |
I don't think west indies 8r cuts are junks.It rare and worth a lot of money,futhermore it represents the finacial history of this area.Is that all get no meaning? I collect pillar and portrait 8r as well as the 8r cut.Here is one of my collection: St lucia 1813 6L15S NGC EF40   Edited by nicolashsing
01/18/2016 9:47 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The coin from St. Lucia is of course important - it has a counter stamp that can be readily authenticated. Yet there are more Numismatic Forgeries of that coin than there are genuine examples. Any cut coin without such a stamp is an EASY target for forgery and much more difficult to authenticate without any markings.
If a coin that has been cut to a vaguely specific "shape" sells for more than melt value - it will create a new opportunity for forgery. It takes almost NO talent to cut and re-tone a cull coin to create a profit. That is why I believe it is critical to focus on facts only and avoid supposition. Some of these coins may have had a legitimate use at some point in history but PROVING that is what needs to be done FIRST.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
If a coin that has been cut to a vaguely specific "shape" sells for more than melt value - it will create a new opportunity for forgery. Quote:
Any cut coin without such a stamp is an EASY target for forgery and much more difficult to authenticate without any markings. True and true... BUT for this particular case, these pieces were not really hyped/speculated on in any way by this seller, were bulk sold in small group lots, and the groups generally sold for under $50. Conversely, ONE (intact) 8R in worn condition such as these would bring almost/about the same price. Because of the variety of mints/assayers (even Char. III vs. IIII) in just this small batch, these have to be genuine pieces that were cut down (whether for use at the time, or as modern fraud). If they WERE modern cuts, that means $125+ retail value went into making $50 in sales. NOT LIKELY!! Given that, it's just not feasible to think that the seller of this batch cut genuine pieces down himself, or even acquired them from someone who pitched them as something interesting/potentially valuable. From that logic, combined with the fact that several others have popped up elsewhere (also without any special hype/sexy attribution), and also that similar weight cob cores have shown up, with sort-of similar cut styles, sometimes loosely attributed to the same region... there's simply no basis to believe these aren't what they would appear to be. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Realeswatcher - you may have missed my Cuban Key Counterstamp article in a previous ANS/COAC gathering. I LOVE West Indies Cut and Coutermarked coins and I found that gathering to be the most interesting off all the one's I attended at the ANS ... just the non-countermarked cut pieces to me are JUNK or beginner coins (take your pick). Sure it just personal preference like those ugly Shipwreck coins from the El Cazador ... I will give you $0.50 ... LOL. Its just me ... yes ... yes ... yes ... very historical.
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
They may be genuine - or counterfeits we do not even know if they are silver yet.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
I knew there was another Potosi cob clipped to that 15-16 gram range that I had seen recently... couldn't find the link, but came across it while doing a little electronic organization just now. 15.94g... again out of France:  |
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Valued Member
China
106 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I wish the pictures were clearer. It looks like the coins were scored first (shallow cut along a line) and snapped to partly break off the piece. Is that correct?
Also can you post edge pictures of the remaining colonial edge pattern on the Mexican coins in particular?
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Replies: 78 / Views: 17,308 |
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Posted 01/17/2016 7:54 pm
