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Replies: 12 / Views: 2,049 |
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Valued Member
United States
123 Posts |
I've used the web sites of different grading services to see the "population" they have graded of a certain year and mint of a certain type of coin.
Is there a database somewhere that lists the combined known population of a given date-mintmark combination? In other words, all the grading services combined?
I realize population reports are on the low side, since they don't include raw coins.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4592 Posts |
No
Nor are the grading services Pop reports all that accurate, since they don't reflect resubmissions and crackouts.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
Heritage lists all of that information both on active and closed lots. You do have to check each coin date and mm individually. Regardless of the small percentage of crack outs and resubmissions the resulting numbers can be very interesting.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4337 Posts |
I don't think anyone knows the true pop of any coin as much as they may get within a certain percentage of what exists for any issue.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
The problems with population reports as noted above: 1. The obvious problem -- coins that have not been certified are not counted in the population 2. The less obvious problem -- crossovers from other TPG's, as well as coins that were cracked out by an old owner and resubmitted by a new owner, inflate population numbers. Example for #2: PCGS certifies a 1882-O Morgan as MS63. The coin sells, but the new owner busts it out and puts it in a Dansco. 5 years later, that owner sells his Morgan dollar set to a new owner; the new owner prefers slabs, so he sends the same 1882-O to NGC for slabbing, where it comes back MS63 full grade. The NGC population just increased by one, but the PCGS population did not decrease by one -- PCGS has no way of knowing that the coin was a crackout and resubmit. Another example for #2: PCGS certifies the same coin as MS62. You're disappointed, so you crack it out and send it to NGC, who slab it as a 63. Same as above -- PCGS still shows your coin in population, but now NGC shows it too. I agree with the posters who tell you that the best way to know population is to see how often similar coins come up for sale at the major auctions, and on Internet sites. An "approximate" population is known for some coins, but usually ones that had very low mintages to begin with. If you ask a Morgan specialist, they can probably tell you off the top of their head which dates are absolute scarcities (i.e. not many survivors in any grade) and which ones are condition scarcities (i.e. not many survivors in a particular grade range.) One other option is CAC -- if you have a CAC stickered coin (you don't have to own the coin, just need to be able to see the TPG cert #) you can input the data on CAC's site and it will tell you how many of that coin's date/mm CAC has seen from all the TPG's. However, CAC only green-beans or gold-beans a percentage of the coins they check, so then again, the number is just a guess.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4592 Posts |
paralyse, I'll add #3:
#3 Details coins have not - here to for - been counted... this is changing - I just noticed researching this reply that NGC now has a boxed D and shows the details counts...
So, I'm looking for an 1864 3cs in XF40/XF45... the NGC pop reports says 1 in XF45 and 2 in AU53... that's probably an honest #, I doubt much crack-out and resubmit. But that borderline Morgan that Paralyse was talking about, it probably accounts for 3 or 4 of the 'pop' across the two services and maybe several grades...
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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New Member
United States
11 Posts |
I've watched my dad crack open countless slabs (against my advice) so he could add to his Dansco albums. I assume this is more common than most think. Pop reports are probably way off
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Great point, BStrauss3 :) I hadn't taken that into consideration.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3155 Posts |
Based on what paralyse and Bstrauss3 has said I wouldn't put any weight in population reports. It's just not accurate, plain and simple.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1590 Posts |
I think you could probably develop a formula based on current ebay sales versus published mintage, taking samples over time. For instance if there are, for 1893 Morgan silver dollars, 1000 "P"s, 2 "S"s; 600 "CC"s, ect, then compare them as a percentage of known mintage. This would give you a baseline for survivors. This would be a lot more involved because of a number of factors and you would have to take more samples at different times with longer durations between samples. Because the closer the samples are together in time, the more likely that there will be duplications.
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Valued Member
 United States
123 Posts |
Thanks to everyone who commented, I have learned a lot.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
521 Posts |
I wonder if they might be useful for relative grading, though. As mentioned by jmkendall, a Morgan specialist could tell you scarcity of grade for a certain date/mint. Do you think these reports could do the same? If I am looking to buy a 63-65 (MS) of a certain coin, could I learn whether to wait for a superb example (because many have been graded as such)? I might also be able to get a better deal on a higher grade if those grades have similar numbers. For example, I have been looking at certified Buffalo nickels lately. Looking at the PCGS pop report, I see that the 1938 D numbers about 30,000 graded at 66, while there are almost 24,000 graded at 65. When I see this, I know I can probably get a 66 for at most a 65 price. I also know there is absolutely no rush whatsoever to buy a 1938 D unless I judge it to be a truly superior example. As a side note, this coin does dominate the auction listings (as mentioned above). This is an extreme example because these numbers are far higher than any other coin in the series. As another example the 1916, considered common, numbers at 1,170 at 64 (the grade I try to buy). This is radically different that the 1938 D, obviously. I know that I won't have as much choice. However, I may still have some price range within the grade to work with. This is probably not the case for a 64 1918, which numbers only 409 at 64. Casual observations on ebay seem to support these relative numbers (and the prices that are paid). Just my thoughts.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
You can draw some correlations: a coin with a low PCGS pop (that is not a variety or error coin) is almost certainly scarce in that date. This only works for valuable coins; you shouldn't think that your VF20 1978 LMC is worth a fortune because PCGS shows a 0 population -- this is because some coins are so common and of little value that it far exceeds their worth to slab them in the first place. For classic coin series (anything pre-60s) in higher grades, it can be useful; the older you go, the lower the grades become to be worthy of slabbing (if you have a 1793 Chain cent in poor, you'd might slab it anyway, but not a 1908 IHC in F12 where you would a MS63.)
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Replies: 12 / Views: 2,049 |
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