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Pillar of the Community
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2815 Posts |
I just acquired this 1889 VAM-19A "BARWING" Morgan- an excellent way to use those ebay bucks, ya know? It was listed as a VAM-5A, which is how it was formerly catalogued. I was doing further research on this particular variety, and I noticed something different about mine. The position of "1" in 1889 (2 ½ denticles past Liberty's neck point) is correct for the 19A, but the obverse die crack running through the point of Liberty's neck and through "18" is missing. This would obviously imply an earlier die state. Link showing the die crack: http://www.vamworld.com/1889-P+VAM-19AHere is the excerpt from the VAMWorld website: Quote:
Below is an image of a VAM-19A with the 1 indexed two and a half denticles to the right measured from the point of the neck. Notice the edge of the 1 aligns with the center of the denticle. Also, the distinctive die crack is found only on VAM-19A coins. I'm not sure if VAM-19A coins come without the die crack, but if it is present, it is a "smoking gun" indicator. So, does the VAM-19A without this die crack have its own designation? I have the 4th edition of the VAM book, but it still lists the barwing as 5A, with no other barwing type listed. I didn't see another type of 19A listed at VAMWorld either. Am I missing something obvious here? Can you guys help me out with this one? It's fun learning about these VAMs. Here is my coin:   Edited by Darth Morgan
04/04/2016 9:03 pm
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Pillar of the Community
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7390 Posts |
Hmm. Interesting. I think I see a hint of the crack but it looks more like a shadow than a crack and it follows the same contours. Maybe this is a candidate coin to add to / update the VW page. Let's see what dave and nate think. Can we get a macro pic or with a loupe of the area?
Edited by Cascade
04/05/2016 09:00 am
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Rest in Peace
United States
637 Posts |
Cracks are not listable, so the coin would not get its own designation. It would be referred to as an earlier die state is all.
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Pillar of the Community
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7390 Posts |
Nate, wouldn't this possibly be proof of the existence of a 19a without the crack to clarify the line darth has highlighted in red above? If it confused him others may be confused too but now there may be proof of 19a specimens without the crack. I wasn't thinking a new designation, just clarification.
Edited by Cascade
04/05/2016 10:26 am
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Rest in Peace
United States
637 Posts |
Well the VAM-19A came before the VAM-22, and obviously after the VAMs 19B1 and 19B2, both of which have the crack. I am thinking that the 19A always have the crack at the date. The VAM-22 has a different OBV, and from what I know it has no crack at the date, though that may be inaccurate, but the pages reflect that.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2815 Posts |
Quote:
Can we get a macro pic or with a loupe of the area? Yeah, I'll get a macro shot when I have it in hand. Quote:
Cracks are not listable, so the coin would not get its own designation. It would be referred to as an earlier die state is all. So the "barwing" is the key feature of this VAM, regardless of what other anomaly may appear on the coin. I get the logic, but wouldn't it make sense to call this VAM without the die crack a 19A and with the die crack a 19B? To me, the presence or absence of a die crack is a major difference. Edited by Darth Morgan
04/07/2016 08:37 am
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Rest in Peace
United States
637 Posts |
The fact is that it is of the VAM-19 die marriage, and the "Barwing" break received its own designation for that break (VAM-19A). The crack (since not listable) can only help determine the relative die state of the variety, whereas your coin with no crack could be regarded as an earlier die state of the VAM, though not of the dies because of the known progression of the dies. When a clashed version of this VAM-19 die marriage was found and sent to LVA, he saw the clashing as a listable feature and called it VAM-19B, which is now broken into 19B1 and 19B2 due to two separate and very distinguishable clash events. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
637 Posts |
Here is an example that may or may not help. Please consider the 1883-O VAM-39, listed as having "Date Digits in Denticles, Die Flake in 8." Now if you take a look at the VAM-39A page, you will notice that the only difference in the listing is that this late die state was listable due to the addition of a doubled ear, which is often a result of die wear. When you look at the full coin photos on the page, you may notice that the 39A shows a die crack that circles most of the obverse die, though being as though it is just a crack and not a break, it is not listable as such - it was the doubled ear that differentiates this die state from its earlier die state: the VAM-39. If one were to find a coin of the VAM-39 die pairing that has the cracks, but no doubled ear has formed, technically speaking, it would be referred to as a VAM-39 LDS (Late Die State), and some may even be inclined to call it a VAM-39A EDS (Early Die State). Die cracks are generally used as "markers" to identify certain coins and also to determine relative die states of coins, but are never listable without a break. http://www.vamworld.com/1883-O+VAM-39http://www.vamworld.com/1883-O+VAM-39ACheck out this cool breaker: http://www.vamworld.com/1885-O+VAM-25AThe breaks on this coin are different from the type of break on the "barwing." If there is an earlier die state of this with all of the cracks, but no breaks, it would be called a VAM-25 LDS or 25A EDS depending upon the attributor. I hope this helps! |
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Pillar of the Community
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I hope this helps! It helped tremendously. Thank you so much. Your analysis explained the differences very nicely in a well organized, concise way. I very much appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise with us. I'm virtually new to the VAM world, but I enjoy the educational challenge of proper identification.  |
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Rest in Peace
United States
637 Posts |
No problem.. glad I could help! I was not sure if I was being clear or not, but it seems my post was easy to understand.. or at least relatively! Nice coin, congrats ;)
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Pillar of the Community
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
Can I assume this is a lesson about not posting about a coin until you actually get it in hand? Or did I miss something?
Edited by VAMsforMoney
04/09/2016 4:57 pm
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Pillar of the Community
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7390 Posts |
I thought I saw a faint crack as per my first post but that is not faint in the new pics. Those op pics must be scans I'm thinking. They were hiding alot of minor scuffs too.
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Pillar of the Community
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2815 Posts |
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Can I assume this is a lesson about not posting about a coin until you actually get it in hand? Or did I miss something? Calm down, and don't be a jerk. Life's too short to get butt-hurt over trivial things. If you'll read the text in red, bold letters above, that is the reason for this post. Read first, then comment. Just a suggestion. Please excuse me for wanting to learn more about VAMs.  Edited by Darth Morgan
04/09/2016 6:59 pm
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Pillar of the Community
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2815 Posts |
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Those op pics must be scans I'm thinking. Way too nice to be scans. I think it was just the lighting. It's crazy how blemishes can be so well hidden in photographs. Of course, there's always the possibility of touch-ups, which I'm sure no one here is guilty of, myself included.  |
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Rest in Peace
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10625 Posts |
I would wager the seller's photos are just harshly over-exposed. Text book 19A Darth. |
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Replies: 16 / Views: 4,347 |
Posted 04/05/2016 10:00 am
