Counterfeit Two Reale Brings $698 On Ebay

SwamperBob
You have stated in some of your past posts you collect contemporary counterfeits of spanish colonial coins. Are you able to give me some idea of value if I post scans of several I have? I have collected 8 reales for 25 years and along the way picked up some interesting ones. If you are interested in seeing, I'll drag them out of the bank next time I go there and scan them. I have always found them interesting but didn't realize others actually collect them.

Bob, I was watching that one. I thought it was a nice crude counterfeit, but decided not to touch it after the seller told me that the edge was plain. I'm blown away by the final price, as well.

~Roman

Just goes to show the rising popularity of the counterfeit collecting. Very interesting indeed.

houston_guy462004 Like anything else - interest (Demand) and rarity (Supply) drives the price. Counterfeits are a numismatic commodity just not too popular - yet. Old school collectors and dealers shunned many types of counterfeits as somehow being "beneath them". It was a prejudice in the Northeast US anyway. I think it was part of the same SYSTEM that kept information about coins contained within the Old Boy Network.

This attitude is worse with regards to Mexican and Spanish American coins and counterfeits. It makes no sense to me at all, because if your ancestors lived in the US before the Civil War they DID use Mexican silver coins. They also used Counterfeit Mexican coins. So any collector of early US should include Mexican.

The prejudice against all things Mexican (which I find to be foolish) seems to extend to the Mexican counterfeits even if they never came from Mexico. I personally subscribe to the belief that the majority of Mexican Counterfeit coins that circulated in the USA were made RIGHT HERE. In the north, I think there is added animosity to the subject because the first book published on the subject was written by a Confederate official. Doctor John Leonard Riddell was a mint employee in New Orleans who allied with the South and was an official in the Confederate Treasury. His landmark work has been ridiculed without basis for many years in the North and just recently his efforts were finally noticed with the publication of Davignon's book on Counterfeit Bust Halves.

Bob, the description only mentions gold. The estimates are often hopeful, but I will definitely watch to see what it closes at.

~Roman

Litotes That is an excellent question. It raises some issues that I have been studying for some time - with no final resolution.

The first issue is how many of the counterfeit dies have survived and can they still be used?

About 35 or 40 years ago there was an auction in Attleboro, Mass. It was the liquidation sale of a jeweler's estate. The jeweler also manufactured silver jewelery and the business had been in the same family since the early 1800's. Included in the inventory were a number of 8 Reales and a pair of dies. A coin dealer I knew was at the sale and bought all of the 8Rs. They were all dated 1834 and they were struck from a single pair of dies. Unfortunately he did not win the dies - which he says MATCHED IDENTICALLY. I bought 3 of the 8Rs because they were obvious counterfeits made of silver washed copper. They cost me $3 each and they were essentially "MS". Years later, when I finally located and bought a copy of Riddell's "Monograph" for my own collection, I realized that these coins were a match for a Riddell counterfeit. I do not know when these coins were struck - if they were "remaining inventory" from 1845 or if they were made more recently. But they were listed in Riddell's book.

So in at least ONE case that I know of - the Riddell dies HAVE actually survived to modern times.

There are three other Riddell coins that I suspect may still be in production (or may have been recently produced) based on the number of high grade examples and the range of metals observed on surviving copies. Of course "hoards" are always possible and empiricle evidence is subject to revision. But the three varieties I am referring to are FAR MORE COMMON than any of the other Riddell varieties. Fortunately, the numbers of these coins available have keep the market prices low for these particular coins.

The second issue which is more in line with your inquiry is whether or not there are modern copies of Riddell coins or copies made by modern forgers that are made to look like old counterfeits? The quick answer is unfortunately yes. How many is very uncertain. But they ARE being made.

The problem is that certain Riddell listed varieties have very numerous related issues made from rather similar dies. Some look very modern because they are higher grades than are typically seen. However, most of the "real" varieties are RARE. If you see too many of one kind be suspicious - be very suspicious.

I view the issue of distinguishing the "originals" from the modern copies as a critical part of the attribution process. However, how can you do it when the dies match or even when they are very close is style?

Here is one way. Look for at least two copies of each counterfeit die pair - one high grade (for your collection) and one that clearly circulated and has a period cancellation with appropriate patina. I have used this as a prima fascia test of the age of a counterfeit for years. Always get provinance when possible to make sure that the sources do not match. It is NOT fool proof and you need to be cautious. That is one reason why my collection includes roughly 1 in 3 coins that I still label as "Suspect" because I can not CONCLUSIVELY identify them as Contemporary Counterfeits.

A second way is to examine the technique used to make a coin. For example if the dies were computer engraved or the coin was injection molded - it is not a contemporary counterfeit made in 1835. That is an extreme example but the principle is valid. If a manufacturing technique or alloy DID NOT EXIST until date X then all coins made using that method or alloy were made AFTER that date. That sounds simple but all you have to do is look at the number of "Colonial" counterfeits supposedly made with German Silver and you can see the problem. GS was NOT used during the Colonial period therefore there are NO Contemporary Counterfeit Colonial coins made from German Silver PERIOD. GS is an alloy that dates to the early Republican era and no amount of wishful thinking will alter that very simple fact of History.

The theory I am currently working on that holds the most promise is that metallic contaminants will be able to identify WHEN and possibly where a forgery was made. Just like certain silver contaminants (gold, platimum, iron, lead and arsenic) can be attributed to certain Mexican mints - there are marker contaminants in all forgeries. Based on my preliminary XRF tests some contaminants are rather unique so they can be used for identification. I NEVER intend to publish my results fully because then the forgers will know what metals to add. But for now this is the best theory I have. I am only limited by access to XRF equipment which can ID the trace elements. I estimate that I need to run no fewer than 3,000 tests to confirm the validity of my theory and to have a meaningful but fractional database.

If anyone knows of anyone or any group that has access to an XRF and would like to assist in this project - please let me know.

I hope this helps answer your question. If you have any counterfeits that you suspect are Modern copies of Contemporary forgeries - please post pictures.