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 Replies: 18 / Views: 4,231 |
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
I believe that it is past time for the numistmatic community to call for the re-establishment of an ANA member run Independent Grading Service. The service should be run by professionally trained numistmatists who are Not Active Coin Dealers. There should be no hint of any potential or inherent conflict of interest. Perhaps we could start it by getting our elder long time collector members to serve as volunteers. In time, fees paid could profit the ANA itself. That profit could be used for scholarship, education, and for the training of a future paid staff of professionals. ANA used to grade coins a long time ago. They should begin to do so again. Obviously the current TPG's will not like this. So what! The new service should put grade, variety, die state and other relevant info on their slabs. They should also photograph all coins submitted and archive the pics. online for accessibility to members. They should keep and publish current pop reports. They could also offer coin restoration services. They should also include the name of the grade finalizer used on each coin. I believe that this service could do a great deal to end the inconsistent, fraudulent, and arbitrary TPG grading of coins so prevalent in today's marketplace. With a true independent service, I believe that the market will grow much more solidly. What say you? ... Gusp |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1490 Posts |
Gusp, Thats not a bad idea and would like to see a true independant grading service. However ultimately it is each indiviual responsibilty to train himslef/herslef on how to grade the coins they are considering buying. The only benefit I personally ascribe to the TPG's is for authenticity of highly counterfeited coins. I am still going to grade the slabbed coin and make my own decision as to what it grades. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
749 Posts |
I think you have a great idea Gusp!
How would one go about getting this started?
Is it the fact that there are so many collectors out there now that the companies(TPGs) had to hire more, less experienced/eduacted graders and now the grading system is out of whack?
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Valued Member
 United States
288 Posts |
Excellent JimR. That is how it should be done always. Learn to Grade. I am not too concerned for experienced collectors. It is more a matter of inexperienced collectors and investors. Sadly, it affects all of us by skewing the marketplace. The lack of independent grading lends itself to fraud. We are dealing with human nature. It also turns off potential collectors and investors. It also confuses people. Imagine that I am a collector or dealer, and grader. I invested into coin X at a certain grade that I believed to be finest known. Along comes your coin and it is better. I get to grade your coin. Hummm..... Human nature and all there is a great temptation to bias my grading of your coin. Guess who is more than likely to come out on that one? This is just one simple example. There are many. Too many! I was asked by a major grading service many years ago to become involved in their new venture. They asked me to become a member and their variety attributer. I declined stating that I believed that a non independent grading service could never work correctly. I explained at that time that it seemed riff with the potential for market manipulation and fraud. I did not care to be part of that possibility. I wanted the ANA to continue to grade coins independently. I still do. Had the opportunity been such that I could have attributed and graded for an independent service, I would have jumped at the chance. There are just too many good reasons to Boycott all TPG's and require the ANA to attempt to clean up this mess. Immediately. We all will benefit to the detriment of no one save the exception of a few self serving crooks. Thanx for your insight and comments....Gusp |
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
Lucky 13. I would suppose contact the ANA first. Tell them you want it fixed. Share this with all other collector friends. Have them do the same. Tell two friends to tell two friends...ect. It is past time to end the stranglehold. Thanx for sharing....Gusp |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
quote:
In time, fees paid could profit the ANA itself
The ANA will never operate a grading service again. You want to know why? They are a federally chartered 501(c) non-profit organization. That is the reason why the ANA sold ANACS in the first place- they were making too much money which jeopardized their non-profit status and that was really before TPG was the big money game it is today and it would be even worse now. The ANA will never give up their tax-exempt status just so they can operate a grading company. The ANA can associate with a grading company in name only, which is why NGC is the "official" grading company of the ANA. Good idea in theory, but the operational and tax structure of the ANA renders it a moot point. |
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
BioK...Did Not remember all that. Excellent answer. However; Sounds a bit fluffy. I am sure you are probably correct. BUT, was that was what was really going on? There are very many ways to spend profit and retain Tax Exempt status. You spend the money on Education, Scholarships, Ect. Making too much money is never a problem when the legal structure is properly set up. I do not remember too much of my Business Law anymore, but I would venture to guess that it could most certainly be set up to operate properly. Besides, If ANA can associate with NGC, they can most certainly associate with a NON Profit specifically designed to accomplish these goals. Where there is a will, there is a way. Thanx for insight. There were, and most certainly still are, too many money interests involved. BOYCOTT THE TPG's. ....gusp Edited by gusp
02/21/2008 1:14 pm
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Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
I don't think that the ANA is going to be the source for objective grading. At this point, they sell their patronage to the highest bidder. Just now, it's NGC, but that could change if someone else offers more money. Even after they sold ANACS, the continued to tout ANACS as their grading company of choice. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion. |
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
Thank you Susan. I do appreciate your guts. I am disgusted with the current coin hobby. It REEKS. I took a friend to a coin show in Denver some years back. I showed him some real cool coin varieties. There was a few microscopes available for use by the public. I let him examine my coins. Even as a non collector he could clearly see what I was explaining to him even prior to microscopic examination. Shortly thereafter I went over to a certain Hotshot self proclaimed expert to show him some unknown material. He looked at my coin and dismissed me with a backhand lying thru his teeth about what he had just seen. My friend started to take a swing at him. I grabbed my friend and led him away. No need for that and all. The coin business should be ashamed of itself! My friend asked me how I could stand all of this. I told him that I really could not and that was why I had kept such a low profile for all of these years. Well I am fed up. After 52 years of collecting and getting a bit long of tooth, I find it necessary to speak out. Maybe not too politely. This hobby has altered from a fun and educational experience to some form of degeneracy. The lies, greed, and hostility current today at shows and shops are harming the Hobby. What we need here is local, state and federal intervention and perhaps, subsequent racketeering indictments. What ever happened to integrity, honesty, ethics, and common decency? Now do not misunderstand me. I know a great number of very fine collectors and a few honest dealers. They are worth more than their weight in Karma. I am just calling a spade a spade and speaking from very many many years. If the ANA cannot police itself then they must be forced to change. I am not sure if that is the case. I gave up on them when they sold ANACS. I still love the Hobby. I am a Numistmatist. Think about it an peace up all.....Gusp |
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Valued Member
United States
155 Posts |
I don't see why problems with third party graders are the responsibility of the ANA. No matter what company is set up to grade coins there will always be all of the same issues involved. For one nobody is perfect each and every day, everybody makes mistakes. The only way coin grading could ever be completly accurate every time would be if they could program a computer to do it successfully every time and account for all the factors involved. Even then you know what would happen is not everyone would agree with the exact parameters they programmed the computer with. Third party grading has to be taken with a grain of salt or everntually you will get burned. I would agree with Jim that the biggest benifit of the TPGs is them confirming the authenticity of the piece. The numerical grade is always going to be subject to the different people's view. The ANA can recommend avoiding certain TPGs, they can endorse TGPs that have good services, but they can't change the way another company chooses to operate. If they started their own grading service there'd be another thread a year from now pointing out reasons why the ANA grading service should be shut down. |
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
OK. Detractors are gonna run into a Semi here. Come armed with facts and be prepared. I can only hope that if you have a financial interest in TPG's that you are honest enough to state it here openly before responding. Later to the ANA if need be. That certainly does not and has not mattered much to me in a very long time. Saddened, but not mattered. I even question the validity of TPG authentication of coins short of the no brainers. Years of experience and an honest resolve can do that to a person, sans the 52 years of experience. In our day we had to read the metal. Now computers save you the effort...and knowledge. What is so hard to understand that the state of the Biz today seriously lacks. Do you really believe that allowing inherent conflicts of interest somehow empowers? I mean besides yourself? Did you know that back a few years ago you could not even get information as to how PCGS graded coins? They considered it to be proprietary information and treated it as such. Now you can buy from them that info. Well Happy B.S. The ANA published standards that every player could access. The playing field was level. Computers were tried. It failed. Grading is subjective. More so when there is an inherent monetary conflict of interest. ANA owes nothing to anybody. It is at best a loose association of like minded people sharing an art. Or at least it used to be until things went sour. It is the contemporary ignorance and mass media manipulation of the public that has led our children to believe that they are now somehow entitled to profit without effort. Results bear this out. I do not care if ANA completely tanks, if in fact the money mongers have so corrupted their ranks as to lead them to abandon their statuetory responsibilities and bylaws. However, there are lifetime members who have legal and member rights. Besides, all I am suggesting is a BOYCOTT of ALL TPG's and the creation of an independent non profit service. How can there be anything wrong with wanting an unbiased and NON Profit Grading service?... Thanx for response. Gusp Edited by gusp
02/21/2008 5:09 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
533 Posts |
quote:
What we need here is local, state and federal intervention and perhaps, subsequent racketeering indictments.
What ever happened to integrity, honesty, ethics, and common decency?
Wait, are you saying that to administer some integrity, honesty, ethics, etc. that we should involve the government?  Besides, I don't think that the lobby for independent coin grading services pulls much weight around The Hill. quote:
How can there be anything wrong with wanting an unbiased and NON Profit Grading service?...
There is nothing wrong with wanting, but you might be wanting for a long time, unless you have the money to pony up and back the effort. It is hard to get investors for a non-profit. quote:
The service should be run by professionally trained numistmatists who are Not Active Coin Dealers. There should be no hint of any potential or inherent conflict of interest.
What about a serious collector? They could have a serious conflict of interest. Would you insist that everyone in the company have no contact with any coins? Similar to CNBC, and their employees not being able to own stocks? How, many serious numistmatists do you know that would be able to look at sweet coins all day, but not be able to have any of their own? I think that you have a noble idea, and I'm sure I speak for most everyone that if it became a reality I would be the first in line to use the service. I just don't know if it is possible to completely eliminate all conflicts of interest, or get the thing off the ground. I am fairly new to all of this, so if I am way off base just ignore me, or tell me to take a hike. I also have a tendency to play a bit of a devil's advocate. It is a good idea though. Edit I forgot one thing. As for a boycott of TPG's, isn't there supposed to be an E-bay boycott this week too? As far as I can tell it hasn't been too successful... Edited by MorganNoob
02/21/2008 6:01 pm
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Valued Member
United States
288 Posts |
Excellent Morgan...Good questions. Do I expect collectors to stay out of the grading....ABSOLUTELY!
It would amaze one to understand the amount of seriously dedicated individuals with extreme ethical standards that surround numistmatics. Suppose they may be frustrated also?
We did all of the early NECA work as a love of the ART. I am referring to early The original Neca prior to Coneca.
I would not allow my name to be published in their books. I knew this when I was 11 years old. False pride was not gonna go down in my parents home.
Like I inferred, I am resolved to correct this phoney B.S.
What is wrong with people that they think money will resolve all of their problems? That is a reflection of commercial marketing hysteria.
Break the T.V. and read a book....Better yet read it to your kids.....G...
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As too govt. involvement. I expect and demand that they prosecute the criminal frauds, not to run any kind of legitimate enterprise.
Edited by gusp
02/21/2008 6:41 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
628 Posts |
I don't respect any TPG. I'm not ashamed to use TPGs in my pursuit of an occasional coin sale to help fund my addiction. People might not agree with "slabbed" prices, but rarely, in my limited experience, will they argue with a PCGS or NGC appointed grade. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. Ideally I'd like to see a TPG with regional offices and independent well trained management and staff. I might join any reasonable revolt against third party grading, or, more to the point, support a reasonable effort at reform. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
533 Posts |
quote:
As too govt. involvement. I expect and demand that they prosecute the criminal frauds, not to run any kind of legitimate enterprise.
You might have a chance then. lol. Being new to the obsession I mean hobby, I have limited knowledge of how actual grading is done. I have looked at tons of PCGS graded coins, and just kinda compare them in my head to what I am looking at and estimate a grade. I have yet to buy a book about grading because I am too busy buying coins. lol. But it is up there on my list. I guess what I am trying to say/ask is: Have you seen many or had many coins graded by PCGS that you completely disagreed with? Am I using a bad frame of reference to start my education? And I have a thing for quotes so... "The duty of youth is to challenge corruption." -Kurt Cobain "I have absolutely no idea what my generation did to enrich our democracy. We dropped the ball. We entered a period of complacency and closed our eyes to the public corruption of our democracy." -Wynton Marsalis "A building has integrity just like a man. And just as seldom." -Ayn Rand |
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New Member
United States
34 Posts |
First, there is no legal reason a non-profit entity cannot charge a fee to perform a service. The test is whether any money passes back into the pockets of the members. If it does not, then there is no 'profit'. Next, crimial activity is criminal activity. If fraud is occurring on a large scale in the coin market, there is no reason at all why governmental investigative agencies cannot become involved. And that includes federal agencies. After all, huge quantities of coins are sold in interstate commerce, and that is all that is required to establish federal jurisdiction. If there is collusion among some coin dealers and some grading companies, then yes, the "racketeering" statutes may apply. Finally, I certainly wish you best of luck, gusp. Like it or not, the explosion in growth of the hobby is inextricably intertwined with the purchase and sale of certified coins. I certainly agree, then, that it is incumbent upon the ANA - as the principal entity embodying the hobby - to take an affirmative stand to assure that third party grading services are (a) provided in sufficient quantity to support the trade within the hobby, and (b) not abused or made the subject of corrupt practices. My own idea had been that the ANA might establish auditing procedures, and staff an auditing body, to review and regulate all TPGs who may wish " ANA approved" status. The costs associated with providing this auditing service would be borne by the TPGs themselves, through assessments paid to the ANA. Care would have to be taken in establishing the auditing practice in order to assure that the TPG assessments were ONLY paid in an amount necessary to support the auditing agency ... and not to fatten the coffers of the ANA treasury, or we're right back in a conflict of interest status. And of course, the auditing practices themselves would have to be sufficiently "blind". Mine is not a perfect solution either, but then "perfection" does not exist in human social (and particularly commercial) intercourse. Gusp's idea may well be a better way. But I absolutely agree that SOMETHING needs to be done. I know that the new ANA board is busy cleaning up other messes at the moment; and I believe that the current "franchise" contract with NGC has what, 2 more years to run? When it expires, the ANA needs to be prepared to move aggresively in a new direction. The time for the board to be planning that new direction is now. |
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Replies: 18 / Views: 4,231 |
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Posted 02/21/2008 10:49 am
