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Coin Silver And Tarnish

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Pillar of the Community
thq's Avatar
United States
3343 Posts
 Posted 07/27/2016  3:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks @andrew. I'll grime up a coin and send it to you, and you can do whatever you like with it. The nice thing about SEM/EDAX is being able to test deposits right on the surface. I used to have access to it but am retired now.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2016  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add terry8835 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dip it in "E Zest" and see what happens. That is the best silver dip I have ever used and cheap as well. I have a few old silver spoons and other silverware. I would not mind getting rid of 100 years of tarnish. However, we have a mystery wrapped in an enigma with you old silver. I bet there is an answer out there.
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Andrew99's Avatar
United States
1533 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2016  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This week I received from OP, the following coin

Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish

Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish

For the purpose of analyzing the black spots that recur over carrying of the coins. There are three other coins as well, but all have similar spots.

The coin was placed in a scanning electron microscope, first to take an image of what we are looking at. This is a 15x image of the three spots on the neck with the head pointing down

Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish

This is a 50x image of the middle spot.

Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish

Note that the spot has some structure and depth to it, more as if something is raised off of the surface than something changing color on the surface.

Switching to EDXA, which will give an elemental breakdown of all elements contained in this middle spot


Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish

Note the major component is silver, a significant amount of Carbon, some Oxygen, some chloride. The silver oxide is expected of course, but there is a lot of carbon in that spot. The Chloride is likely from body sweat as it was in a pocket.


Now lets go off the spot and look at the non-spotted surface

Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish

Ok, so we still see the silver, much less Oxygen, much less carbon.

So far, I can only conclude something organic from the environment is adhering to the coins, perhaps via a reaction with the silver.

I tried to remove the spots with a razor blade and got not much of anything. I'll try with a toothpick and see if I can take off enough to do an FTIR.
Edited by Andrew99
08/12/2016 1:56 pm
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thq's Avatar
United States
3343 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2016  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks @andrew! The coins were in a leather pouch, so they should not have seen much chloride from sweat, but they could have picked up some carbon dirt from the pouch.

I'm surprised that there aren't appreciable amounts of sulfide. These dirt spots don't have the same composition as tarnish. Yesterday I looked through a bin of junk silver and the sulfury smell of tarnish was apparent, but the pocket coins have never given off that odor.

The copper to silver ratio in the spots is also much higher than the sterling florin itself. Does this indicate any breakdown of the alloy?
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
08/12/2016 5:42 pm
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2016  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If a silver coin is below Fine condition, and not very rare,
I don't think it matters much if it is cleaned or not.

So, go for it, if you think it will look better.
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Andrew99's Avatar
United States
1533 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2016  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not sure I'd make too much of the copper to silver ratio as the spot rises off of the surface and the carbon is coming from somewhere. Also yeah, no sulfur indicates it is not tarnish or toning, but something organic that is binding with the silver on the surface.
Valued Member
Lunch Money's Avatar
United States
276 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2016  9:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lunch Money to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love the full analysis Andrew! Nice work.
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jaxenro's Avatar
United States
533 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2016  2:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jaxenro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A lot of leather is tanned using sodium chloride
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thq's Avatar
United States
3343 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2016  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I started carrying old coins around partly because of cc's question "What's in your pocket?" I expected for the coins to get shiny, the way silver did back in the 1960's in my dirty Levis pockets. I didn't expect these grimy spots. I think there's something happening to the coin silver as it ages beyond 100 years. I didn't see the spots develop on 1960's silver when I carried it in the same way two weeks ago.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
08/13/2016 3:34 pm
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jaxenro's Avatar
United States
533 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2016  6:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jaxenro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it's an interaction with the tanning solution used to tan the leather pouch you keep them kn
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Fathead 5's Avatar
United States
294 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2016  03:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Fathead 5 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm curious; why do you carry junk silver coins around in your pants pockets?
Valued Member
South Africa
331 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2016  03:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add teslacoil to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Carry your coin like this......I do

Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish

Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish
Pillar of the Community
thq's Avatar
United States
3343 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2016  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@aron because they're old and I like having old stuff around. Better in the pocket than in a cigar box in a drawer. Also because they jingle.

@tesla here's my preferred way to carry a coin



Coin-Silver-And-Tarnish
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
08/24/2016 5:50 pm
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2016  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So that's great - does anyone else even notice?
Edited by Coinfrog
08/24/2016 6:54 pm
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thq's Avatar
United States
3343 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2016  11:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@coinfrog not so far. It's not like having a concho belt made of Buffalo nickels or silver dollars. It seemed like a good use for a coin with obverse damage. The best coin buckles I've seen were made by Wades using gold coins and hand chasing on the solid silver.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191939460810

I'm not going for the showy gold though. I'd rather wear something that looks like an ordinary rodeo buckle. Why advertise? I know what it is.

"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
08/28/2016 11:41 am
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