Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsSpecializing in Modern Numismatics 300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

A Question About Word 'Pfennig' ... And Middle Ages Coin Making

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 4 / Views: 1,133Next Topic  
Valued Member
Dagaz's Avatar
Slovenia
459 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2016  02:19 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Dagaz to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A little while ago I was asking about origin of word 'cash'. Now I'm turning to form members with another similar question.

I was reading on history of word 'pfennig' and found this:

Even though the etymology of the word "pfennig" is not completely clear, people believe it originates from the way coins were minted during the Middle Ages: the base material were thin flat metal discs. The value was embossed on one side, creating a pan (German Pfanne)-like coin.

May this be the origin of the word or not, I fail to understand the connection with pan. Weren't devices embossed on both sides at the same time? How would that produce a pan-like effect? The way coin production is described here, sounds like they were convex.
Anyone has any thoughts on this?
Valued Member
Netherlands
74 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2016  06:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add qxy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In German you've got pfennig, in Dutch penning, in English penny, and they probably all have the same origin. What that origin is, is up to debate. From the wikipedia page for penny: "The etymology of the term "penny" is uncertain, although cognates are common across almost all Germanic languages[n 3] and suggest a base *pan-, *pann-, or *pand- with the individualizing suffix -ing. Common suggestions include that it was originally *panding as a West Germanic form of Old High German pfant ("pawn" the sense of a pledge or debt, as in a pawn shop putting up collateral as a pledge for repayment of loans); *panning as a form of the West Germanic word for "frypan", presumably owing to its shape; and *ponding as a very early borrowing of Latin pondus ("pound"). Recently, it has been proposed that it may represent an early borrowing of Punic pn (Pane or Pene, "Face"), as the face of Carthaginian fertility goddess Tanit was represented on nearly all Carthaginian currency"

As for the pan: there are coins that are only embossed on one side, those coins in Dutch are called brakteaat. A google images search returns this:https://www.google.nl/search?q=brak...050&bih=1575, to give you an idea of what those coins looked like.
Valued Member
Dagaz's Avatar
Slovenia
459 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2016  06:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dagaz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much. Of course I did not think to check 'penny,' although I knew it is related to pfennig
The Tanit theory looks very interesting. I even found the source article on google books. (https://books.google.si/books?id=7m...ge&q&f=false if anyone is interested).
Also thank you for clear-up on 'pan' coins. Whole thing makes more sense now.
Pillar of the Community
Finn235's Avatar
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2016  09:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had always thought that a penny was a unit of weight before it was used to refer to a coin made to that standard. Maybe I have things backwards in my head.

I am also confused how it is always said that the penny was modeled on the denarius and drachma--the older silver coins were not only heavier, but also constituted "real" money in their day--enough to buy a good helping of food.
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5174 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2016  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am also confused how it is always said that the penny was modeled on the denarius and drachma--the older silver coins were not only heavier, but also constituted "real" money in their day--enough to buy a good helping of food.

The pennies were also quite valuable in their early periods - the relative collapse of trade during the Dark Ages made silver extremely valuable. A penny might not have been worth as much as a drachma or denarius would buy in its heyday, but it was a lot closer than you'd expect from the weight alone.

Realistically, the extremely thin medieval "pennies" would have probably been modeled on the thin silver Roman and Byzantine (and perhaps early Muslim) coins, rather than the much thicker earlier silver (such as drachmas and denarii).
The post-ancient European coinage tradition (unlike, say, the Indian one) was never really about the thick chunky silver; discounting the thalers (which were still more large than thick), this persisted even past the 15th century.
  Previous TopicReplies: 4 / Views: 1,133Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.21 seconds to rattle this change. Forums