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 Replies: 16 / Views: 4,668 |
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
21634 Posts |
I know that this might not be the proper forum, but I am posting it here so that more Canadian buyers are made aware.
Just a warning when you are bidding, make sure you check out the other bidders.
I am very disappointed to notice a seller who is a member of this forum and a Canadian coin dealer appears to be involved in shill bidding.
There is a particular coin I am bidding on and when my bid was raised, as always I check on the bidder. This particular bidder whom we will call XXX has recorded 163 bids on 75 items with the same seller. That is 100% of his bidding in the last 30 days.
Checking some of the sellers other listed coins, I noticed that whenever a bid seems low, bidder XXX has increased
the bid, usually with an hour or two to go. I stopped counting at 15 listings.
I won't name the seller but just want to make you aware of what can happen.
I realize this might cause some controversy, but I got stung once before, that is why I always check on competitive bidders to see if they are legitimate first.
I have bought from this seller in the past but never again.
Edited by JimmyD
09/13/2016 11:58 am
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Valued Member
United States
214 Posts |
Hello JimmyD, Have you contacted the seller and asked about the supposed shill bidder? Have you reported the seller to ebay? I'd be interested to hear if ebay pursues and, if the seller is guilty, punishes the seller. I'm curious: How many retractions does the shill bidder have? Do you have any examples where the shill bidder wins (and the item gets relisted)(and/or the shill bidder leaves positive feedback)? Please pursue this and let us know the outcome. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2845 Posts |
Thanks for sharing JimmyD. Very prudent advice to check the stastical data that's shown for competitive bidders, I now do as well. Suspected ebay shill bidding can be reported: Listing Practises > Fraudulent Listing Activities > Seller is Using Other Accounts to Inflate Item Price |
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Bedrock of the Community
 Canada
21634 Posts |
aswag- I have not contacted the seller. I know he will read this and am waiting to see if he retracts the shill bids on his own before I report him. I have reported shill bidders to ebay in the past and with some success. To me, a shill bidder is worse that some one selling counterfeits because they know what they are doing. Whereas someone selling counterfeits sometimes do not realize it. The irony is after seeing what this coin sold for after I stopped bidding, I was going to bid at more than twice what it sold for. Maybe the other bidders realized what was going on as well, that's why the bidding stopped. I have not pursued it any further but will later when I get some time. Interested to see what the seller does. Edited by JimmyD
09/13/2016 12:54 pm
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Moderator
 Canada
10460 Posts |
Quote:
I am very disappointed to notice a seller who is a member of this forum and a Canadian coin dealer appears to be involved in shill bidding. You have my attention now... of course, there is nothing new with coin dealers and shady affairs - they seem to compliment each other at times. Unfortunately, it paints the good, ethical dealers, with the same brush.  "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
JimmyD. I'll bite on this since I am currently running many auctions and we live in a world of Trump conspiracy with back door rumours flying and I am aware that a client of mine (inglica2015) that lives within 10 kms of me that bids on most if not ALL of my low end Canadian and American silver and in turn that may cause the perception of shilling on some of my auctioned items (As do some other regular bidders). I've recently ran many auctions for 50 cent and dollar pieces and he purchases most of it, with those auctions I also ran many American coins that that were purchased by others. Most of those Canadian coins (depending on condition) sold cents below or above melt. You have to ask yourself what the benefit of shill bidding is on Canadian silver where the seller would have to pay commission on those sales. If for some reason the OPs concern is with my auctions, I would be more than happy to divulge details of the above account to one of the moderators of this forum. I also have no problem the OP bringing the issue to ebay as a concern. However I will not prevent a client(s) that choose to pick up stock in my store in person or that I may know from past dealings from bidding on my items. One of the reasons why I run auctions for some otherwise borderline melt bound coins is that they generally sell slightly above melt. What running auctions does do though is it increases my store sales during them by a larger percentage. Bottom line is that if I run auctions I sell more. Edited by TheCoinHunter
09/13/2016 2:29 pm
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Forum Dad
United States
24174 Posts |
I'll tell you right now when Susan and I were selling on ebay we had many buyers that only bought from us and would look like shill bidders. For example there were a couple that bought from her at the local flea market and started looking at her ebay sales too. They wouldn't buy from anyone else though. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3049 Posts |
I'm not sure what you intend on getting out of this thread? Out of respect for the seller and the fact that it might NOT be a shill account you haven't named this seller... however you're basically saying "I'm on to you and you better stop your actions" If you contact the seller directly... if the person really isn't involved with a shill account they're going to state that... and if the person IS involved in one... I hardly think they will admit it! So now you're left with contacting ebay... this I believe is the right course of action... they will be able to look into it a lot more... I think if you want something done you should contact the seller or contact ebay... but a vague thread on a well respected web site only generates gossip and conjecture. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts |
ebay is the proper authority to deal with your complaint, they will look at a lot more than just bids and bidder ID. Things such as payments for lots won, shipping, and disbursal of funds in PayPal accounts, just for starters.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5591 Posts |
I've seen shill bidders in the past (when you could see the other names/handles that the seller had for his ebay account) but you no longer have that access. Now you can't tell when a seller changes his name and still keeps the old one active. I despise shill bidding. Report him to ebay .. they can/will investigate it. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
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Valued Member
Canada
142 Posts |
There's one seller on ebay that I buy 9 out of 10 coins that I buy from that seller alone. I probably look like a major shill bidder too. |
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Valued Member
United States
110 Posts |
A shill doesn't bid to win, so they usually bid early. If a buyer deals with just one or a few sellers but often wins, that could be a sign of legitimate bidding. The advice already given, to watch for a seller to relist items already "won" by a shill is an excellent tip. I remember, though, one seller who appeared to be using shills but traded in modern coin stuff so it was difficult to be sure if the same or new items were being listed. He messed up though when he added easy-to-identify items to his listings, one being a vintage beat-up guitar. It was won by the shill and quickly relisted, ending any doubt. However, at that time ebay was doing a dismal job of pursuing shills, so if they have gotten more aggressive about it, well that is great news. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2845 Posts |
Quote:
A shill doesn't bid to win, so they usually bid early. If a buyer deals with just one or a few sellers but often wins, that could be a sign of legitimate bidding. The advice already given, to watch for a seller to relist items already "won" by a shill is an excellent tip.
Excellent summary of a shill bidder as opposed to a loyal auction customer. There is a difference. Typically a shill bidder will have a low star rating (few actual purchases), but an extremely high number of auction bids along with a high number of retractions as well. The retractions are indications of the shill accidentally winning from time to time, prior to the same item being relisted by the seller...I assume so the seller does not have to pay ebay selling fees. I'm quite certain that Jimmy has been around the block a time or two and is able to recognize a shill profile. I also do believe ebay deals harshly with this type of shenanigans. Quite some time ago I noticed a blatant shill game had occurred but only after I was outbid by a shill. (Not a CCF seller.) During the actual auction I didn't realize, by clicking on other bidders, their bidding profile would be revealed. After losing, I discovered the "person" bidding against me had dozens of retractions, hundreds of recent bids on other items listed by the same seller, and a zero star rating. To make a long story short, obviously the seller didn't achieve the auction results he or she expected because I quit bidding after reaching my max bid amount. Seller relisted the lot the following day at a BIN far higher than the shill's bid, or mine for that matter, claimed the winning bidder couldn't afford to pay. From time to time I keep tabs on the same seller.....zero bids, zero bids, zero bids. Says to me ebay warns and also follows through with an excellent job of long term monitoring. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
I think posting insinuating threads without identifying the offending party with a strong burden of proof doesn't do this board any justice. The theory under which the original post was made in itself does not constitute shill bidding and can be a result of numerous scenarios. I took offense to the post because I have (and had in the past) had individual clients go on a auction bidding runs with my stuff. This happens all the time with individuals/dealers who run auction frequently especially and in numbers (mostly early 1900 silver in my case recently). I for example do the same. I have numerous buying accounts outside of my sellers accounts. Last year I bid and bought coins exclusively from LANZ in Germany. Anyone looking at the those bids would have seen 100%. Was it illegitimate? No... So before we make "loose" accusations about members of this board that may negatively impact their business on conspiracy theories (even if it is on offline conversation), let's make sure there is something legitimate behind it.
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Forum Dad
United States
24174 Posts |
Quote:
I think posting insinuating threads without identifying the offending party with a strong burden of proof doesn't do this board any justice. It's even more irresponsible to name names. I've said it before and I'll say it again.... It's 100% impossible for anyone outside of ebay to prove shill bidding. It's difficult at best even for ebay to prove it unless the offender is a complete idiot and uses an account with the same name and address. |
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Replies: 16 / Views: 4,668 |
Posted 09/13/2016 12:25 pm
