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 Replies: 11 / Views: 2,731 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
533 Posts |
Ok, I now have my QX5 so I can really get close, but I have looked this coin over and over, and looked all over VAMworld, and I can't find any place that if fits. So, I am asking for any help possible. (yes, I am talking to you SuperDave  or anyone else.) I guess I should start by saying that this is an infrequently reeded, 17 berry reverse 1921-P. There are no die cracks that I can see. This is the first A in AMERICA. Tripled?  And the E  and some very tripled denticles. Pics taken above the M in America, and below the R in Dollar.   The R in DOLLAR. Doubled, tripled?  The F in OF. Tripled?  Is this polishing between the leaves enough to call it a VAM-26?  Thanks everyone for your help. If there is another area that you would like me to capture for you, just let me know. I couldn't see any doubling on the chin or face. Edited by MorganNoob
03/25/2008 10:24 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1934 Posts |
After comparing, I can only err on the side of caution and say it doesn't appear to meet the VAM 26 in my opinion. Can you take some pictures that match the pictures on VAM World's site for a side-by-side comparison? Specifically, the leaf, tail feather, and liberty's legs areas where there should be polishing. http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+VAM-26 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
SuperDave is the one I always turn to with my 1921 VAM questions, when he sees this I am sure he will point you in the right direction on which VAM it actually is but you may want to get a full picture of the Obverse and Reverse so he will have a starting point (I know it always helps with 1878 VAM's) |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
The Infrequent Reeding VAM's are a bit more difficult, in that most of them have very similar characteristics. All but two if the Infrequent Reeding VAM's (4 & 27A) are identified by obverse details, although the attribution can be helped with reverse features. In order to call this VAM-26, we have to be looking at the chin first, and the vee in the hair above the 2 in the date. See the pics at VAMworld. If you can see the chin doubling, and those parallel die scratches are there in the hair, then it's a VAM-26. Those die scratches must be there to confirm the attribution. Now. In order to further the knowledge base, and help the rest of the collecting world, anything else you can come up with for identifying marks (like the die scratches in the vee) should be photographed and recorded for posterity. One shortcoming of the current VAM attribution system is the relative lack of detailed information of each variety - many times, coins have wear states or damage which hides key features, and too little other information is available to help with the attribution. It doesn't have to be a feature that's unique to the VAM - if this crack is here, and that scratch is there, and on for 3 or 4 more features, you can cumulatively make an attribution without even seeing the "classic" characteristic of the VAM. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
673 Posts |
Right on SuperDave, I know it would be alot easier to identify some of these through the unique die scratches/gouges/polish marks than with doubling/tripling since so many have some type of doubling somewhere - and it can be very hard to distinguish without high magnification. I hope I can contribute a little in that respect since I have access to a binocular scope . I know when I go to VAMworld I am sometimes disappointed in the lack of pictures for some VAM's and the seemingly vague descriptions- Don't get me wrong, it is an invaluable site for this hobby but they could use collector's help to keep things updated and add just these sorts of things. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
527 Posts |
We do need to keep the pictures updated on VAMworld. SuperDave is right we should be posting secondary attribution features as well. From what I understand however(comming from jlee), is that if there is not a picture for a specific VAM, it is because a picture has already been posted under another listing. You need to compare the obverse and reverse with other VAM's that have used the same dies. The die reference numbers are listed at the top of the discription. I find this method frustrating, I think we should just have the pictures under each variety. |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
quote:
I find this method frustrating, I think we should just have the pictures under each variety.
Ultimately, the way to go is a cross-reference for specific features - listings of each VAM (in a given year) which might share a particular die crack or doubling. Just visualizing such a system makes me tired, though, much less attempting to put it all together. You wouldn't want to go too deep - the cross-reference would end up as complex as the actual listings - but such a system would lend itself particularly well to 1921-D's, for instance. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
533 Posts |
quote:
In order to call this VAM-26, we have to be looking at the chin first, and the vee in the hair above the 2 in the date. See the pics at VAMworld. If you can see the chin doubling, and those parallel die scratches are there in the hair, then it's a VAM-26. Those die scratches must be there to confirm the attribution.
I couldn't see any doubling on the chin, and I know that those die scratches aren't there. I will snap and post a few more pics of it tonight though. Since it didn't seem to fit any VAM very well I just took pics of the most noticeable areas. Surely with the denticles being as tripled as they are they would be mentioned wouldn't they? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
527 Posts |
Denticles often get skipped in identification, they can appear to be doubled due to die wear, Machine Doubling, or even reflection of light. They are usually not a very good identifying marker unless there is a major break in them, or if they have been filled. They are one of those thing that get skipped because there are usually better identifying markers on the coin. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
533 Posts |
Ok, here are some new pics. I took pics of most of the major pick up points, I think. SuperDave, I think that as you cured yourself of most of you addiction to '21 VAMs, I think that you passed it on to me. I won't let myself look at the '21s on ebay, or I start bidding on them. Granted I only buy them unattributed, as I think digging it out of the coin is most of the fun. Thanks for the help everyone. MorganNoob The chin, hair, and upper tail, I think proving that it is not VAM 26    A faint die crack that I found between the M and E in AMERICA.  And a couple 10x shots of the rev and obv, just to help.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
533 Posts |
SuperDave? Any help? I don't want to bother the authorities on the subject if I don' have too. Is there any pointer you can give, or should I just send it to Leroy Van Allen? What is your opinion? Send it, or should I just keep it as another '21?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
527 Posts |
MorganNoob,
I am not seeing an exact match either. Can you post some pics of the full obverse and reverse?
You may want to have this ready to ship off. There aren't that many listings for wide reed's, you may have something new.
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Replies: 11 / Views: 2,731 |
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Posted 03/14/2008 03:18 am
