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Junk Silver Or Bullion?

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Kurrykid's Avatar
United States
455 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2016  6:26 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Kurrykid to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
What do you feel is better to buy...junk silver or bullion? Let's say for two scenarios...a market crash (having something besides paper) or selling later as an investment. I know many will say it depends but I am still interested in the thought process / strategy.

I try to buy an ounce or two every month and I pretty much go with bullion but I'm wondering if I shouldn't be putting more into junk silver.

As far as junk silver, what is the "magic number" for over the face value amount? 12x, 13x, etc.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3789 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2016  6:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yup7676 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First, ZERO market crash... and even if the market were to crash on the odd chance, it will be a better buying opportunity than PMs and it WILL come back with a vengeance, you want to buy all market crashes.

now that we have that out of the way...

forget junk silver, I dont own any as I think its a waste personally. Stick to eagles, maples, pandas, kooks, koalas and 10 oz bars like 10 ounce RCM bars. Throw in a few proof silver eagles also.

But more than silver, buy more gold over silver. even if you can only do 1/10 ounce gold, buy gold MORE than silver.

Finally, add some semi numesmatic silver, like somalia elephants, some Rwanda Hippos.
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fistfulladirt's Avatar
United States
4333 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2016  7:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fistfulladirt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nothing's wrong with a little diversity to keep things from getting boring. It doesn't have to be either / or. I like a bit of everything!
When I listen to LED ZEPPELIN...so do my neighbors...
Roll hunting since '77
Dirt fishing since '72
Valued Member
Kurrykid's Avatar
United States
455 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2016  10:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kurrykid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the comments. As far as gold goes, do you prefer bars or coins?

I'm a little puzzled as to why you can by 2016 US gold coins for less than the mint sells them for on sites like MCM (i.e. 1/4 oz. for $360 vs, $423). I see one is a proof and one isn't but is there normally that much of a premium between the two?

Any thoughts?

Thanks again.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3789 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2016  10:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yup7676 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I personally prefer buying gold coins over bars. I like proof over bullion gold coins, proof eagles, buffalo's, followed by a few proof gold Britannias.

Next in line are semi-numis gold coins, I like gold Pandas and Somalia elephants.

the goal is to have a collection that I can liquidate if I needed too (hopefully that never happens but you never know) while also having a nice varied modern world gold bullion/proof collection.

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Kurrykid's Avatar
United States
455 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2016  11:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kurrykid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So you think the premium for the proof is worth it obviously and they maintain their premium upon resale? Do you purchase graded gold cons or usually just the proof coins?

Thanks again...good discussion.
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Debrajc's Avatar
United States
4211 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2016  11:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Debrajc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm a little puzzled as to why you can by 2016 US gold coins for less than the mint sells them for on sites like MCM (i.e. 1/4 oz. for $360 vs, $423). I see one is a proof and one isn't but is there normally that much of a premium between the two?


Yes there is a difference.
The mint does not sell the bullion coins directly to the public. They sell the proof coins to the public.
Proof coins are sold at a premium and the bullion coins are sold by the dealers to the public at a much closer to spot than proof coins.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3789 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2016  12:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yup7676 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it is yes.

The trick to buying proofs, and other semi-minis bullion coins is to buy them when gold prices are rising. The other factor is mintage numbers on proofs.


I have seen proofs on ebay go for about the same price depending on their year UNLESS it was a low mintage. A few proof eagle years and Buffalo proof gold coins command a very nice premium because of their mintage being lower. I think someone posted a question a few weeks ago about I think the 2015 proof gold Buff, which has a very nice premium because it had lower mintage numbers.

I like to buy the proofs because of their commanding that premium over bullion eagles as an example and then because of their beauty. Just something to majestic and striking about having a collection full of proof gold eagles and buffs.

when I buy the proof eagles, I tend to stick to 1 oz and 1/2 ounce and not any lower size. That also can help with re-sell value.

I have noticed that if you can buy from a reputable dealer, say at one of their auctions on ebay, a PF69 usually comes in a bit less than the mints proof coins as an example, so thats an area where you can find goins at true market value, as it corresponds to PM prices.

I prefer to buy either MS69 bullion gold coins or PF69 proof gold coins when I look at buying graded coins.

Reason being is should anything happen to that MS70 or PF70, say you get a brown/red spot on that gold coin, its not a 70 anymore.

A 69 grade however, usually help insure you dont suffer that drop in what you paid for having what was once a perfect coin. As I stated, I have seen often MS69 gold coins, at auction on ebay, frequently going for LESS than what a dealer wants for a non-slabbed gold bullion coin. So sticking with a 69 grade is a good deal in my opinion.

I currently like to purchase gold pandas in MS69, IF I can find somalian elephants at 69 I will jump on them tho I didnt this year so I had to get a 70. Other gold coins, I just want to get them proof with no grading at all.

What I have noticed tho over the decade plus of collecting proof gold coins is to get a wide variety of gold coins to enjoy, get a mix of bullion and proof gold coins, and get the most liquid ones, such as the gold eagles, the Buffs and then add other types such as proof Krugerrands, Australian Kangaroos etc.

Now some may say- if you buy proofs all the time it is wasted money because you cant buy as much gold. But my point is I want to collect the move up in both the spot price of gold and whatever premium the coins command because of their collector value instead of just the spot price.

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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
United States
5854 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2016  12:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So you think the premium for the proof is worth it obviously and they maintain their premium upon resale?

It may or may not. It depends on the direction of bullion prices. I remember reading articles of how back in 1980, coins that normally sold at a premium like semi key Morgan dollars were being lumped together with common dates to be melted. Looking at an old issue of greysheet in September 2011, the cheapest American gold eagle proof set was bid at $3570 with gold at $1829 giving a premium of about $186 or 5.5%. In July 2016, the same set was bid at $2866 with gold at $1264 giving a premium of about $528 or 22.6%. The same story is the same with junk 90% silver. It is being bought and sold today above the melt value whereas back in September 2011, it was below the melt value. If bullion prices rise significantly, premiums do tend to fall but they do help cushion the blow when bullion prices fall. That is not to say to avoid paying a premium for certain products. I just wouldn't buy them if my only reason was to profit from rising bullion prices. Lower premium bullion like government issued coins, bars, and rounds tend to track bullion prices better.





Valued Member
NK GoldsilverBrassAlu PF's Avatar
Malaysia
121 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2016  01:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NK GoldsilverBrassAlu PF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I always believe we need to clearly know our purpose of precious metals investment. Then allocate our money accordingly to the long term objectives.
I hv a friend who buy only junk silver or junk old -- because he is melting them and converting to jewellery.
I would not touch this as I think bullion is more liquid for me.
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UltraRant's Avatar
Norway
1358 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2016  08:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UltraRant to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I might have a bit of an oddball opinion here, but nevertheless, you asked, so here we go:

First of all, I hate the term 'junk silver'. It's still a precious metal and not junk.

Now, try to get clear what you actually want with your precious metal investment. I personally 'invest' a bit in PM, but always via nice looking coins, as I enjoy looking at those and I enjoy the hunt for them. That these coins always will have bullion value next to their face value is a mere bonus. To me, actually, there is no difference between 'junk silver' coins and bullion rounds and bars, as both are made of the same material and their intrinsic metal value doesn't change based on being a coin or a round or a bar. That's also a reason why I like 'junk coins' better: they can also have a beautiful design, where most bars I own are basically just... bars. Rectangle lumps of PM without any design.

Face value amounts are actually not related to the metal value at all. So if I understand your question correctly: there is no magic number 'over the face value amount', simply because those are two completely unrelated parameters. The only time when face value will become relevant again for bullion coins, is when the whole PM market collapses and face value suddenly becomes higher than PM value, given that the currency of your 'junk coin' is still in use, of course. I doubt this will ever happen again, but as my crystal ball broke down, I can't foresee the future anymore.

Now, if you are interested in having PM in any form with the thought of trading it and making a profit: I seriously doubt it will be profitable. Only on a very long run, I guess: the PM market is overheated now, so I expect PM prices to actually drop again when some of the big uncertainties are out of this world (think the US elections, think Brexit, think Erdohan, think Putin, for example). It might actually be more profitable to buy silver on paper than the physical stuff and it might actually be more profitable to invest in certain stock than metals.
What you should keep in mind, though, is your targeted audience: what do you think you can sell the easiest/fastest and what do you expect can be sold with a bit of a premium. That's where I like 'junk silver' best: over here, it appeals to both numismatists and bullion hoarders. Large bars and kilo coins might actually prove hard to sell, if you sell to individuals, as they require a big investment at once, bringing a bigger risk to the buyer than a lot of smaller bars and rounds.

One final thing: ASE is a tad overrated. You shouldn't solely put you money on that. Just diversify a bit.
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Libertad's Avatar
Canada
3692 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2016  7:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bullion only, as in generic rounds, government coins, and refinery bars. Forget numismatic .999 silver and forget silver with less than .999 fineness. You will get your silver's worth if it is 99% pure, as opposed to paying a refining fee or losing the premium on the numismatic purchase. Ten ounce bars are the working man's choice, and kilo bars and 100 ounce bars for those with cojones.
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fistfulladirt's Avatar
United States
4333 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2016  7:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fistfulladirt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Back almost 40 years ago when I was a senior in high school I remember the full page ads 'Buying Silver!'
I lusted over fine Morgans in the coin catalogs.

90% was hot then but I remember 40% halves were...dirty.
Roll hunting last few years I piled up the 40's.
Come about 2012 I sold several hundred face 40% Kennedys at almost $4 a pop.
Still have dozens of halves found since then.
When I listen to LED ZEPPELIN...so do my neighbors...
Roll hunting since '77
Dirt fishing since '72
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Libertad's Avatar
Canada
3692 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2016  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@NK GoldsilverBrassAlu PF: Tell your friend who is collecting junk silver to convert into jewellery that he's doing it wrong. Once you start mixing old silver with other old silver you lose the "intent" of the alloy. What you get is a very dirty metal that is prone to breaking due to being brittle. He will never have good tarnish-resistant jewellery this way, and help him if he decides to make a ring, which is notorious for cracking if not .925. Tell your friend (absolutely free and rare advice from me) to collect .999 silver and the jeweler will add his own alloys, chosen over decades of tradition and practice. Mixing debased silvers and then trying to add .999 to the mix to make it .925 works on paper but not in hand because you just don't know the metal's property anymore. It's like souping up a jalopy.
Valued Member
NK GoldsilverBrassAlu PF's Avatar
Malaysia
121 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2016  03:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NK GoldsilverBrassAlu PF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Libertad: Thx for the sharing. Will definitely convey the message to him.

Cheers!
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joeysanders627's Avatar
United States
408 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2016  09:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joeysanders627 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I collect bullion, I never spend extra on anything. Don't pay for slabbed bullion or proofs. Who cares about the look. If the economy collapsed tomorrow, are you going to get more for a proof coin? Will anyone care?

Proofs and slabbed ASEs are just a way to get you to pay more for something that should only be a little amount over spot. Don't fall for the marketing. You can believe the truth or you can believe a lie marketed to you as truth.



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