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Graded, Slabbed, Details, Artificial Toning

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twslisa's Avatar
United States
790 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2016  8:18 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add twslisa to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
There are a number of these on ebay. I don't know what I imagined (maybe that they would reject it?), but I was surprised ANACS would grade and slab an artificially toned

coin.http://www.ebay.com/itm/C6880-2012-...AOSwo0JWJxfg

*** Edited by Staff to remove YELLING. All capital letters is the internet version of yelling. Please don't do it in titles or posts. ***
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joeysanders627's Avatar
United States
408 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  01:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joeysanders627 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Most coins are raw, and, I am too surprised to see this anacs label


It could be a good thing, because it lets people know the truth about the coin. Who would purchase an ASE that is only rated an MS60 anyway?
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ilikeikes's Avatar
United States
1205 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  01:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ilikeikes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ebay needs to clamp down HARD on the flourishing Artificially toned coin business on ebay. It is downright out of control, with deception and false information rampant.
Most coins are raw, and, I am too surprised to see this anacs label(they just keep digging their own grave, don't they?), as NGC, PCGS, ICG, would never give a label on an AT coin..never.(PCGS did slab some 1971-S 40% Ike Proof dollars back in the late 1980's, which were infused with a sulfur base oxidant, creating a oh-so-easy-to-spot-look, but, most buyers do not know the difference nowadays, and, spend hundreds of dollars for coins worth melt.
A large ANA campaign, coupled with advice from the TPG's, could help ebay set up new protocol for toned listings, but, since so much money is involved, I seriously doubt any changes for now.
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twslisa's Avatar
United States
790 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  05:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twslisa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I understand the philosophy, sort of--if they give "details" grades for things like cleaned coins, why not grade AT'd coins with the same label? At least in these cases, the buyer is on notice that they are being asked to pay $92 for a pretty piece of silver worth melt. If they want to pay that, go for it.

In ungraded coins, it's entirely up to the buyers, most of whom probably aren't able to spot AT (I just read a 32 page article on it and STILL probably couldn't tell in a lot of cases) to figure it out.

I don't know if it's possible to get ebay to crack down, either. As I recall, they let a guy sell a grilled cheese sandwich that toasted in a way that the charred areas looked like Jesus, for some ridiculous amount. At best, IF THEY can tell that a coin is AT'd, maybe they would require the seller to note that in the description.
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4593 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  09:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a point on the continuum between body bag and invisible straight grade for AT coins.

ANACS has done net grading since the days when they were owned by Amos Press. It's at least open and transparent...

In fact, I bought an ANACS SWH at coin club on Thursday night as the archtype of this kind of grading, it's labeled "UNC Details NET AU55 | RECOLORED"
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Cascade's Avatar
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's fully market acceptable. It looks like a pci toner. At first pci will impart light pastel tones but advanced states look very much like this. It is well documented
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4593 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  10:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCI toning is accidental- an unexpected function of the materials used in their slab.

There's no accident here.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Cascade's Avatar
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is not "AT" Burton. The color progression is correct, there are elevated chromatics and a concentric target pattern
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4593 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ANACS called it AT
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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ilikeikes's Avatar
United States
1205 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ilikeikes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Too unnatural looking, and, too young(2012) to tone this way..99% of ASE's do not tone at all, and, when they do, if from an album, it is outer concentric. Most AT's just don't "look" right, and, to me, this is a classic fit.
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Cascade's Avatar
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  2:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know B. But I strongly disagree. Anacs and to a much larger extent NGC aren't too kind to toned eagles for some reason. I wasn't implying above that it was a pci toner just that the look is very similar. And the date hardly matters Ikes, 999 silver is highly reactive and can tone naturally like this in months or less under the right conditions. Were the right conditions induced, maybe, but crack and send this one to PCGS and I bet it would straight grade. They're the only one that seems know what they're doing with toned eagles
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4593 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's the basic problem...

The toning process, 'naturally' involves long term low concentration to specific contaminants inducing a pleasing visual appearance.

Various processes can apparently accelerate this achieving the same or a noticeably different result in less time. The noticeably different result is clearly AT, but why is the accelerated result NT when it's achieve by deliberate acceleration?
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Cascade's Avatar
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's why I don't typically subscribe to the AT / NT terminology rather either Market Acceptable or Not Market Acceptable
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4593 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2016  4:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
People forget that during the time we own coins we're really only their stewards for the future.

I'll grant you that was done to the bullion coin and it's a little different than what's done to a collector coin. But it's a slippery slope...

Fashion is the evil.

There was a time when the fashion with blast white. Coins were dipped with abandon and the surface is irrevocably altered. Over time they've retoned and now show their true colors as horribly damaged.

Because of the fashion of toned Morgan's people are doing the same thing again.

There probably are hundreds of thousands or even millions of Morgan's out there. But each coin lost is lost forever. And the day will come when there are no more than a tiny handful of original surface coins.

I'm as Numismatist first and a collector second. So I can't endorse any actions that alter the surface of the coin.

It should be passed out of our hands in the same condition it was passed in.

Yes I endorse conservation - true conservation - to preserve the coin we've been entrusted with.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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AES's Avatar
United States
454 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2016  11:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AES to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NGC and ANACS are tough on artificially toned coins and bullion for a reason. The color progression may be correct, but it has obviously been exposed to sulfur and or heat in some controlled manner.

I enjoy collecting toned Morgans and send them to NGC for grading and encapsulation when I find them. The vibrant colors are usually much more subdued and intermittent when it occurs naturally over many years, in my opinion.



Graded,-Slabbed,-Details,-Artificial-Toning
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2016  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
NGC, PCGS, ICG, would never give a label on an AT coin..never.

That is absolutely incorrect. PCGS problem code 91 is "Questionable Toning" and NGC adds the "Artificial Toning" notation to the grading label. ICG will slab pretty much anything in any condition.
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