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 Replies: 41 / Views: 5,161 |
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CCF Master Historian of USA Commemoratives
 United States
12277 Posts |
Quote:
Commems: I went and read the law and it does refer to commem halves as all being clad which would mean silver is presently not an option. I wouldn't lie!  Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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Moderator
United States
188560 Posts |
Commems knows his stuff.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4901 Posts |
"Trust but Verify".... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
591 Posts |
With all due respect, I disagree that 31 U.S. Code § 5112, part (m) is mandating that commemorative half dollars be minted only as clad coins. Are you guys attorneys? I am not, but reading this again, it is very evident that (m)(2) is concerned with mintage levels only. (m) Commemorative Coin Program Restrictions.—
(1)Maximum number.—
Beginning January 1, 1999, the Secretary may mint and issue commemorative coins under this section during any calendar year with respect to not more than 2 commemorative coin programs.
(2) Mintage levels.—
(A)In general.—Except as provided in subparagraph (B), in carrying out any commemorative coin program, the Secretary shall mint—
(i) not more than 750,000 clad half-dollar coins;
(ii) not more than 500,000 silver one-dollar coins; and
(iii) not more than 100,000 gold five-dollar or ten-dollar coins.
(B)Exception.—
If the Secretary determines, based on independent, market-based research conducted by a designated recipient organization of a commemorative coin program, that the mintage levels described in subparagraph (A) are not adequate to meet public demand for that commemorative coin, the Secretary may waive one or more of the requirements of subparagraph (A) with respect to that commemorative coin program.
(C)Designated recipient organization defined.—
For purposes of this paragraph, the term "designated recipient organization" means any organization designated, under any provision of law, as the recipient of any surcharge imposed on the sale of any numismatic item. From what I can tell, from a purely legal standpoint, if the enacting legislation for a future commemorative coin program specified silver half-dollar coins, then it would mean there simply is no mandated mintage limit beyond what that same legislation specifies. But I'm sure the US Mint is reading this the same way you are commems, and I think that is unfortunate because I do believe they have more freedom than they think they do. I'm guessing (m)(2) was simply written this way because these have typically been the denomination/metal combinations for modern commemorative coins. I do not believe the intent was to say that all future commemorative half dollars can only be minted on clad planchets, etc. In 1982 and in 1993, halves were minted in silver. Clearly, this clause is about mintage levels. I believe the impetus for part (m) was really to limit the number of commemorative programs per year (as stated in part (1)). This legislation was coming off the 1995/1996 olympic issues which just inundated consumers with commemorative options. I recall reading that there was a sort of backlash to that overabundance, and so this clause [i.e., (m)(1)] limited future commemorative programs to just two per year. Part (m)(2) seemed to be associated with that, in that the actual number of coins minted would also be capped. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4901 Posts |
I am also not an attorney but I would interpret it as it clearly states: ...they can mint up to 750k clad halves The only present decision to be made is the number of coins not the composition. Quote:
) not more than 750,000 clad half-dollar coins; It does not state "not more than 750k half-dollar coins either clad or silver" I would assume they could change the law if they really wanted silver halves...they changed the specified coin shape for the baseball commems. |
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Moderator
United States
188560 Posts |
I think all they need to do is include (in the authorizing legislation) something like "also do this to amend this section of this existing law."
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts |
Having only silver clad commemorative half dollars is death to that type of coin in my eyes. Why would anyone want to buy something like that when they can get 1 ounce silver dollar probably for less? If the Mint produces 20,000 clad commemoratives in the future to honor John Glenn they are still just cheap silver clad coins like you can buy on TV no even worth the S&H fee.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4901 Posts |
Maybe I'm missing the point but the previous discussion was about making the halves out of silver rather than clad...not silver clad halves. ...and 20k clad would never happen. The usual number is around 750k....20k clad WOULD probably create a buzz |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
591 Posts |
@Foxwoods Man - I agree. I'm guessing terry8835 meant "clad" not "silver clad", but maybe he can clarify. Well, the final (un-audited) mintage on the National Park clad half dollar (uncirculated) is 21,335 per https://competition.usmint.gov/cumu...les-figures/ ("Data Through Week Ending January 1, 2017") Time will tell to what extent this creates a buzz. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts |
I did meant clad since I see the modern half dollars are not even silver clad as I understand it. I see some silver dollars. I don't want to buy clad coins. Some of the "silver Ike dollars are 40% silver? Those went over like a brick since most were clad. I think most just don't want to buy junk that is just base metal with clad surface that wears off in a few years. Just my opinion. |
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CCF Master Historian of USA Commemoratives
United States
12277 Posts |
Quote:
I think most just don't want to buy junk that is just base metal with clad surface that wears off in a few years. For clarity's sake, US clad coinage is not plated coinage. US coins are made from special three-part bonded metal planchets that have a pure copper core that is "sandwiched" between two layers of copper-nickel. The layers are bonded under extreme pressure; separation of the layers is extremely rare. The surface (outer layers) of copper-nickel will not wear off a US coin in a few years. US coins are very different from the plated medals struck by private mints that have a copper or copper-nickel core that has been plated with a VERY thin layer of some other metal. Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4901 Posts |
Quote:
Time will tell to what extent this creates a buzz. The problem with "buzz" creation is that it has to be perceived in advance...it's hard to create after the fact. Perfect example is the Liberty medals...mintage was stated to max at 12.5k which is a ridiculous number and it was sold out immediately. If the Mint stated mintage was going to be 500,000 it, not being a true coin, would have languished for MONTHS and probably would sell LESS than the 25k total for both (or close) an would have been taken off sale on 12/30 with no further mention or increased value. A couple of days ago a 70 grade set sold for over $500 Reverse issue with the clad NPS halves. Mintage was potentially huge so nada on the interest front...taken off sale at year end with a minuscule number sold...and no respect. Sales are few and profits are small (if any) Now, yes, the medal was silver which adds to the pot but I just bet if they EVER announced a clad half with a mintage of 12.5k was going to be sold it would be a winner...maybe not a $500 winner but a $100 one. Another example is the 2012 silver proof set still selling in the $200 range. Low mintage yes but HIGHER than 2015 which has little respect. Reason? The 2012 was abruptly taken off sale creating a perceived rarity....the 2015 set was known to be ending sales on 12/31 so anyone wanting one could have ordered it... It's all about perceived rarity...in advance It's not all about numbers... |
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Moderator
United States
54282 Posts |
This begs the question....should the mint create coins purposefully with small mintages ("artificial rarities") so they could sell them all?
Show your financial support of the Coin Community Family (click here)See my topic on Mexican Numismatic Medals (click here) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
It will be interesting to see what happens; 21335 is less than half the mintage of the 1996S Swimming (49533). Collectors sometimes wake up to a low mintage. ebay has them for $29.79 free shipping, so no stampede yet. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
591 Posts |
Actually, the lowest mintage modern commemorative half dollar up until now had been the more recent uncirculated 2013-P 5-Star Generals Half Dollar, with a mintage of 38,095. So this NPS unc half dollar is nearly half that.
Good points Foxwoods Man.
However, with commemoratives it seems that sometimes low demand = low mintage = high (after market) demand.
I think the most striking instance is/was the low mintage uncirculated 1997 Jackie Robinson half eagle (i.e., $5 gold). This coin sold only 5,174, and stood as the lowest mintage unc $5 for 20 years until this year's NPS $5 Unc which just had reported final sales of 5,201. The perception in the final week(s) of sale, as discussed on a number of coin blogs/sites, was that this coin had a high potential to be a new low mintage key in the series. If you know what the 1997 UNC Jackie Robinson $5 typically sells for, then getting in on a new low mintage in the series could mean several times return on investment (for "flippers"). Meaning, final mintage was going to be less than the 1997 Jackie Robinson, and this spurred sales in the final 3.5 days of some 750 coins, nearly 15% of the total sold over the entire period for which it was for sale (since like March or April).
The final audited mintage numbers likely won't be released for a few years, but if you assume at least 27 of these coins are returned to the mint, then this NPS coin may actually represent the new low mintage in that series, and may eventually command the same type of premium that the Jackie Robinson has, for a number of years now.
For both these National Park Service coins (the unc $5 gold and the unc half), I doubt the market will reflect premiums very quickly. That is, folks will be waiting a few years to see if mintages start to rise again in subsequent issues. If they do, then these coins have the potential to be recognized as low mintage keys in their respective series, that's when values may increase.
Edited by one_fine_dime
01/04/2017 2:19 pm
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Replies: 41 / Views: 5,161 |
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Posted 12/30/2016 10:22 pm
