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 Replies: 17 / Views: 2,157 |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
Ok folks. Not a poll this time because I have increased the number of coins to 6. Please be bold and post your opinions in the thread. The obverse legend "L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIII" occurs on three disctonct issues:- Rome, Old style Laodicea-ad-Mare and New Style Laodicea-ad-Mare (the one that ran all the way to A.D. 202. Now we have to take the mint allocation to "Laodicea-ad-Mare with a pinch of salt as we don't know the true location but RIC and BMCRE use Laodicea. Here are six obverses from these three issues. I am being deliverately obtuse and keeping reverses out of it. It is possible to split these by style alone,  Which coins come from which issues described above? One of the coins is odd for other reasons. Which is it and why? Martin |
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Pillar of the Community
 Spain
2752 Posts |
Here goes....
1. Rome.Just doesn´t seem to fit into early or late style of LaM
2. New Style Laodicea-ad-Mare.Transition period from early to late.
3. Rome..Overall lovely lifelike details.
4. Rome..Normally the portrait is laureate bust..This one is rare as its laureate draped and cuirassed bust.
5. Old style Laodicea-ad-Mare..Slightly cruder engraving.
6. New Style Laodicea-ad-Mare..Smaller portrait,tight curls on beard pointing slightly up,eye seems right.
I realise now just how much Ineed to practise.
Saludos Paul
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Moderator
 United States
34427 Posts |
Quote:
One of the coins is odd for other reasons. Which is it and why? Is it #5 (because you used that to create your avatar)? "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
 United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
Spence,
My avatar came from a different (earlier) issue. But the style is close.
Martin
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Moderator
United States
34427 Posts |
Well I got nothing then. However, I'm eagerly waiting to hear what some of our experts say on this stuff.  "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
Coins 2 and 6 New Style Laodicea
Coins 1,3,4 Rome
Coin 5 Laodicea Old style
Coin numbers 1,2,3,5 atre all bare busts; coin 4 is draped (the only one so treated), and coin 6 is apparently partially draped, in the back only (decidedly wierd). Coin 6 is odd man out
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Here goes
# 1,3,4 Rome
# 2 & 6 Old style
# 5 New style.
Knowing me I have got it completely wrong.
Not sure which is the odd one out, apart from the drapes on coin 4 which Ellarby has already pointed out.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
So 4 is specialbecause of the drapes. This is unusual on denarii for Septimius Severus.
Nobody has quite nailed the rest yet. Lots of close calls though.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that not all of these coins are of the IMP VIII series. Coin #2 appears to be IMP VII and Coin #3 appears to be IMP VIIII. This might have a bearing on "old style" vs "new style" since the transition took place during IMP VIII. Correct?
As for the draped bust of coin #4, could that be an indication that this was patterned after an aureus?
Edited by lrbguy
03/12/2017 11:13 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
Coin 3 is my misake and I accidentally put in an IMP VIIII from Rome in place of an IMP VIII. There is no change in style between IMP VIII and IMP VIIII from Rome. Coin 2 is IMP VIII and only appears to be IMP VII. There is no IMP VII series from the east (the references have been proven to have this wrong as they are mis-readings of IMP VIII).
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
Forgive me as I puzzle this out.
Obverse inscription break patterns:
1: RT - AV
2: ER - T A
3: RT - AV
4: PE - RT
5: PE - RT
6: RT - AV
The logic:
Coin 3 was just affirmed to be from Rome as an IMP VIIII "with no style differences from IMP VIII at Rome." The beard has two prominent spikes. The RT-AV break may be a marker for Roman style.
Coin 6 has a reduced scale bust with two strong spikes. The characteristic of "New Style" at Laodicea is that it more closely emulated Rome. I then associate Coin 6 with New Style Laodicea. Same break pattern as #3.
Coin 2 also has a reduced size bust and on that ground I attribute it to Laodicea. However the beard is much less prominent, so I associate coin 2 with Eastern mint "old style" due to the contrast with coin 6. Different break pattern than #3 (or "New Style" #6)
If the shorter beard is characteristic "Old Style," then coins 1 and 5 are also old style. Coin 5 has a reduced size bust, so I still associate that with Laodicea. Coin 1 has a larger bust like coins 3 & 4, but a less prominent beard (unless the details are shadowed). Did Rome also produce in "Eastern Old Style," or may we allow a larger bust from an Eastern mint? Against the latter for coin 1 is the break pattern of the obverse inscription which precisely follows that of coins 3 and 6. I still maintain that coin 1 is from Rome, but in beard design shows what we are calling "Old Style" for the East.
For me the pivot is becoming coin 4. This coin has Old Style treatment of the beard and has the same "Eastern" PE - RT break pattern as coin #5. If the supposition that it was patterned after an aureus (draped) is correct, there is an aureus from Laodicea which has these characteristics, but I have not seen a picture so cannot verify a match on the bust size (reverse features Mars).
-----CONCLUSION-----
So it boils down to this:
Coin 1 - Rome, but in Old Style
Coin 2 - Laodicea - Old Style
Coin 3 - Rome (pattern for New Style)
Coin 4 - Laodicea - Old Style (after an aureus)
Coin 5 - Laodicea - Old Style
Coin 6 - Laodicea - New Style
Edited by lrbguy
03/13/2017 12:34 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Spain
2752 Posts |
I think thats a good call lrbguy.
My only difference was 4...I really didn't know where to put this one.
.I new it was the odd one because of drapery but style ?
Lets wait for answers
Saludos Paul
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
I seem to have interpreted coin 5 incorrectly which has me a little confused Martin.
Based on the results of the previous thread I have used the eyebrow as the indicator which appears to be my error ( please correct me ) instead of the slightly cruder style.
In this instance am I correct in saying that it is the overall " style " of the bust that gives it away as " old " and even though the eyebrow indicates " new " that marker should be ignored.
My apologies if I sound like a year 1 student
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Pillar of the Community
Spain
2752 Posts |
Just like to say thanks Martin for posting these threads. They've been really educational, interesting and I've thoroughly enjoyed them.I feel I've learnt a great deal.In this thread I only got one wrong..right mint wrong style!  The links are excellent as a research source as well as being a lovely collection  Thanks again for sharing Saludos Paul |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2100 Posts |
This curved eyebrow is not isolated to "New Style".
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Replies: 17 / Views: 2,157 |
Posted 03/12/2017 3:20 pm
