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 Replies: 22 / Views: 3,359 |
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Valued Member
United States
121 Posts |
I've been trying(very unsuccessfully, it seems)to cherry-pick die varieties, and as the ads in the back of the magazines when we were kids said, "make big money fast!" I'm kidding about the last line, of course, but I have become a bit disillusioned with my new interest. I've been speculating mostly on Shield nickels of the 1883/2 varieties and 1870 FS-301, the RPD/die clash with Indian cent. I studied all of the examples in the CPG, and compared all the coins I had picked up, rejected about half of them, and sent 11 in to PCGS. Got them back today, and struck completely out; not a die variety in the bunch, according to them. I didn't expect a grand slam, but I figured I would do better than I did, and I looked them all over again this evening when I opened the box, and I still don't get it. The pics in the CPG are all eye-popping examples that Mr Magoo could pick out from across the road, and I get it, you want "textbook examples" in your textbook. But I have also studied other coins that have been slabbed, and some of PCGS'own examples, and they have had quite a bit less metal than the examples in CPG, and I know some of mine had as much or more. So....what am I missing here? Is there some kind of standard scale or points of reference for each variety that is used? Of all the zillions of articles on numismatics, I have yet to find one on this subject. It seems people always want to refer me to literature on the minting process so I will understand how coins are minted, and that's supposed to provide the answers. I know a lot more about that now than I did a month ago but I'm not any closer to determining what makes the guys in the back room at PCGS make the game show buzzer sound, say "I'm sorry Bob, that's not a winner", yuck it up and move on to the next one. Does anyone have an idea where I might find points of reference or parameters used for making the determination? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts |
I have never sent a coin in to get graded but do you have to pay extra and ask for special designations on these overdates and varieties for it to appear on the holder label?
If you don't ask, will they just grade it as an 1883 and send it back as such?
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
BCG, show some examples of what you mean. Uses a side by side comparison with a failed example of yours and and a PCGS graded example. You may be right, lets prove it. Your 1883/2 racketeer isn't by what I can tell an overdate. Let's do some more. Be happy to give a second set of eyes, well eyeglasses that is...  |
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Valued Member
 United States
121 Posts |
Nickelguy, funny you should ask that. I have wondered the same thing; mostly because there seems to be one "default variety"(for lack of a better way to put it)listed in the price guide, and if you click on that, it will take you to the other varieties recognized by PCGS. I have talked to 2 of their people on the phone and one via email, and didn't get a straight answer out of any of them. I thought my question was pretty straightforward in the way I phrased it: "If I submit a coin as an 1883/2 Shield nickel and don't pay the $18 variety attribution fee, do you just check it for the variety listed in the main section of the price guide, or is it checked against all known varieties?" They all answered my question the same way, that the $18 attribution fee gets the die variety printed on the label for you. I pointed out to all of them that that didn't answer my question, and asked it again, and none of them seemed to have a clue what I was asking. So, to play it safe, I have paid the attribution fee on all my submissions. Edited by Biker Coin Guy
04/10/2017 11:50 pm
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Valued Member
United States
121 Posts |
CrazyB0, my crappy microscope won't take that great a pic, but if you don't mind hopping on PCGS site and checking cert verification, take a look at 83745813. I thought(and still do)that it was an FS-305
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts |
Okee doke ... glad it wasn't a dumb question on my part. Wishing you the best on this quest.
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Valued Member
United States
121 Posts |
Crazyb0, if you want you can shoot me an email to *** Private information removed by Staff. Please do not post your address/email/phone number etc. ***. I probably won't have time to do this for a couple of days, but my brother has a high$ camera that will take a picture of a pecker gnat's... So I'll see what I can do with that and send you some pics. I should be able to zoom in on the dates with those; hopefully the slab won't interfere too much.
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
BCG, on my tablet in bed, so will work better on computer later. What I saw on PCGS example was a rotated hub doubling showing extensively in the motto, IN GOD WE TRUST, all letters affected rotated CCW(2x on right) with a die break filling in between the G and O. The shape of dates seem to match. Give pix of the motto, and I'll work on it tomorrow. Also, on other side was a rim Cud? die break at 5 o'clock. Those are comparison die markers, some, all or none may be there.  |
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
BCG, need to turn on email feature in your profile. Take it off your post quick!
The advertising bots will get ya! They circle this site continually looking for that kind of info. Use the PM feature to contact one another at first!
Edited by Crazyb0
04/11/2017 12:28 am
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Valued Member
United States
121 Posts |
CBO, the PCGS one was my coin. I always do the secure grade with pics. There is a small rim Cud just southwest of the last a in America, almost across from the next star south, |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1000 Posts |
BCG, I just took a look at your PCGS cert. If it's for the same coin you posted earlier with the Cherrypicker's guide images, I don't see it. In the CPG 1883/2 overdate, the 2 was distinct to the left of the 3. On your coin, I see a little chatter to the left of it, but it didn't match up with the CPG images.
[edit] Also, why go high price with PCGS on "maybe" coins? ANACS is cheaper and will list more varieties than the big two TPGs. Even if you want the coin to end up in a PCGS holder, ANACS as a test run, then cross submitting to PCGS would be cheaper. When I last took a look at ANACS variety cost, I believe it was $9 a coin.
Edited by Druu
04/11/2017 12:33 am
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Valued Member
United States
121 Posts |
Druu, no this was a different one. I think this one is an FS-305, ans so far Crazyb0 agrees with me.
Also, are you saying that PCGS only recognizes 2 die varieties ion these? On their website, it says they recognize all varieties listed in CPG, with exceptions listed. If what you're saying is true, their $18 attribution fee is a colossal ripoff, and I got royally screwed!
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Valued Member
United States
121 Posts |
Couple things to cover: In a post above, Crazyb0 describes the PCGS photo of the coin in question as: ----------------------- rotated hub doubling showing extensively in the motto, IN GOD WE TRUST, all letters affected rotated CCW(2x on right) ----------------------- This coin is not rotated hub doubling or any other sort of DDO. What you see on the motto is called Longacre doubling. It is very common on 1883 and 1882 Shield nickels. ------------------------------------------------------------------- In response to the OP, you are wasting a ton of money sending these coins to PCGS for variety attribution. You should only send coins to PCGS for variety attribution if you're already sure you have the variety. PCGS will sometimes get it wrong even then. There are resources available to you to find out whether your coin is a variety or not for free. For example, post here. |
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Valued Member
United States
121 Posts |
A further answer to the OP about whether there is a scale used for determining varieties: Shield nickel variety attribution is difficult because there are many similar varieties. In order to correctly attribute a Shield nickel, one must examine far more than just the supposed variety area. A short list: Position of the date has to match exactly. For obverse 1, the shape of the engraved leaf has to match exactly. Other die features, like cracks and die lines are frequently necessary to confirm an attribution. The other side of the coin should also be examined for die markers, although this is not absolutely dispositive since mix-and-match obverse/reverse die pairings exist. Finally, if all you have to go on is the photos in CPG then you don't have enough information to correctly attribute Shield nickels. But apparently, this is what PCGS tries to do, so it is not infrequent to find a Shield nickel attributed to the closest thing CPG has to offer. CPG lists perhaps 20% of the known Shield nickel varieties, and there are plenty of uncatalogued ones left too. |
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
ItchyN: thanks for that info on Longacre type. I'm just now getting into the varieties of older coins other than Lincoln Wheat cents! Looonnnggg way to go. Just offering the abilities I have of comparison, eyesite and photographic manipulation which has helped me so far. That said, can you point me to a specfic pix resource other than PCGS listings? Same for you BCG. Getting more & more interested in this series, is one that seems affordable on my limited(fixed) income. Other coin series are just a bit out of reach at the moment. Have a few Shields meself I need to photo-document and scope out. Bikercoinguy: Itchy does make a good point , but I'm assuming you have done a lot of the homework before sending in, hence the frustration. Yea, just maybe TPG's get it wrong (why all the re-submits?). But on the other hand, maybe there's not enough other known markers on a submitted coin, that's the point I think your at...trying to determine that, correct? Also, turn on the email(PM) feature, mods removed that info from post, bots search this site for just that info, want more popups? 
Edited by Crazyb0
04/11/2017 12:15 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1000 Posts |
I'm not sure what PCGS will attribute with respect to Shield nickels because I have no personal experience with that series. The next Shield nickel I buy would be my first. My understanding is that the three main TPGs, ANACS will attribute more varieties than the big two. I think I've read somewhere that PCGS and NGC will only attribute varieties that are listed in CPG with FS numbers. If it's something like a WDDO or a listing on Copper Coins, my understanding is that ANACS will attribute those, while the big two will wait for it to be listed in CPG. |
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Replies: 22 / Views: 3,359 |
Posted 04/10/2017 11:29 pm
