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I Am Sure This Is Not Genuine. But....

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BigSilver's Avatar
United States
2843 Posts
 Posted 04/22/2017  10:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Echizento. I think I will do just that. I plan to XRF this for composition, if correct I willv find an expert, else I will send it your assuming that does not break any forum rules concerning counterfeits.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 04/22/2017  10:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you do an XRF analysis, look for trace metals, not the purity of the silver.
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BigSilver's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 04/22/2017  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since this post generated much more interest than I expected (and I am happy it did) I went back to look at the coin more closely. I noticed what I would best describe as extra features around the devices and I took some magnified pics to show. I dont know if they are indicitave of a sure fake or a good sign of a genuine piece. Hopefully the extra pics will help clear things up.
1. About the elbow area.
I-Am-Sure-This-Is-Not-Genuine.-But....
2. About the hand-held bird.
I-Am-Sure-This-Is-Not-Genuine.-But....
3. About the letters under the chair/stool.
I-Am-Sure-This-Is-Not-Genuine.-But....
4. Lastly about the bent foot.
I-Am-Sure-This-Is-Not-Genuine.-But....
Most important, I thank you all for your opinions.
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  2:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those lines are very odd. At magnification I would expect to see flow lines for the strike, but not lines like this.
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34423 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Those lines are very odd.


Ron, just spit-balling here... Is it possible that the die cutter "roughed" out a sketch on the die prior to actually making the design and that is what we are seeing? It is something that some painters will do, but I've never heard of this sort of thing with coins. I don't think that they don't look like any sort of doubling from the coin moving slightly in the dies in between hammer strikes.
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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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Kamnaskires's Avatar
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7066 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is it possible that the die cutter "roughed" out a sketch on the die prior to actually making the design and that is what we are seeing?...I've never heard of this sort of thing with coins.


That's exactly what it is. I agree that, added to the red flags mentioned in this thread, it's another cause to condemn the coin. However, be aware that guidelines can be seen in genuine examples too on occasion, particularly circles inscribed to help the engravers.

Such circles were often used on dies for later Parthian drachms, so the die cutters knew where to place the beads of the borders. From an Artabanos II drachm of mine, for example:
I-Am-Sure-This-Is-Not-Genuine.-But....

A line below, used not for engraving motifs, but rather for die alignment in this example from Ancient Joe at Cointalk:
I-Am-Sure-This-Is-Not-Genuine.-But....

And an example from Martin (maridvnvm), posted at Cointalk...the circle used as a guide for the engraver of the legend:
I-Am-Sure-This-Is-Not-Genuine.-But....
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 04/23/2017  6:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok that is super-interesting. Thanks Bob!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  7:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dave the thought crossed my mind but I wouldn't think the die cutter would leave those lines on the finished die. I use to seeing lathe lines on large Ptolemy coins but those are different from these. I really have no explanation for them, however Bob's explanation does make sense. I wish David Sear was a member he would know the answer.
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BigSilver's Avatar
United States
2843 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2017  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If you do an XRF analysis, look for trace metals, not the purity of the silver.


Sooo, I got to the XRF guy today, he said that it was 100% silver. I was looking over his shoulder and I thought I saw a trace amount of gold. like .1%
Would a genuine example be nearly pure silver?
I started this thread certain of this coin's fakeness, and not I am unsure...
Can we please get a new smiley face that has dollar sign eyes for "Caught the get-rich-money-bug"?
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louisvillekyshop's Avatar
United States
1306 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2017  2:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While I don't have a reference for this next statement I would highly doubt any ancient silver coin is 100% silver ever. A couple of years back someone let me play with a handheld XRF instrument and I scanned so many coins I had at a show I was selling at. Ancient ores are so random, impressively so, for trace elements. Only something modern would be that fine silver. My opinion only of course.
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BigSilver's Avatar
United States
2843 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2017  2:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Only something modern would be that fine silver.

My initial thoughts as well.
My second thought was- why silver at all? This is a question that always troubles me about counterfeiters. Why the devoted attention to some details, and the ignorance of others. They can google just like the rest of us.
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 Posted 05/04/2017  7:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add augustus1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Two more things condemn it as fake. Look at the crossbars on his throne. They are not precisely horizontal. They almost look as if drawn with perspective. That never happens on genuine Alexanders. Also, the upper torso is too frontal.
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34423 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2017  7:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@BS, thanks for following up with the XRF info. This has been a really awesome thread in my opinion.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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