Grade My Favorite Coin - A Special 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter / SLQ - Some Day... - Page 2

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numismatic student Bedrock of the Community United States 11904 Posts	Posted 04/27/2017 8:33 pm This coin is the finest 1916 SLQ graded by PCGS. It was graded MS67FH CAC in this picture from 2010. It is now reholdered in a PCGS MS67+FH slab. The coin last sold for $195,000. Although that price is high, a 1927-S, 1919-S and 1918/7-S have sold for more money. Although those coins are not graded as high as this coin, they are all rarer. Interestingly, SLQs graded above MS65 are more common with FH than without. In any event, I think that no technical grade can capture the beauty and eye appeal of this coin. Thoughts? IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com Edited by numismatic student 04/27/2017 9:15 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Matt2727 Valued Member United States 219 Posts	Posted 04/27/2017 9:27 pm No words! That coin is flawless in every aspect... Report this Post to the Staff
numismatic student Bedrock of the Community United States 11904 Posts	Posted 04/27/2017 10:06 pm I like that I can see five distinct fingers... ...five distinct toes in the right foot and four distinct toes on the left. Fifth one appears covered by drapery, not worn off. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com Report this Post to the Staff
billjones Pillar of the Community United States 1499 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 08:28 am My opinion is "over graded." The head is not sharp enough to rate the "Full Head" description. I've seen better heads on other 1916 Standing Liberty quarters. To prove it, here one that PCGS graded MS-66, Full Head. I took this from the "Coin Facts" site where this MS-67, Full Head coin is also pictured as the finest PCGS has graded. Edited by billjones 04/29/2017 08:38 am Report this Post to the Staff
panzaldi Bedrock of the Community United States 18708 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 09:03 am i had it at MS66 but did not think it was FH. I think the only reason it did not get 68 is due to the slight weakness in strike otherwise its pretty much flawless. Report this Post to the Staff
numismatic student Bedrock of the Community United States 11904 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 11:14 am PCGS FH standards differ for 1916, 1917t1 and all other SLQs. Some FHs are stronger than others. All that make the minimum std receive the designation. https://www.PCGS.com/News/Tips-From...m%20Part%201 IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com Report this Post to the Staff
billjones Pillar of the Community United States 1499 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 3:09 pm Here is a close-up of the head that is on this 1916 Standing Liberty quarter in "MS-67+ Full Head." It looks like this coin falls short of the "almost full head" according to the standards you cite. This coin gets the grade from the color of toning more than anything else. With coin grading skepticism is a good thing. Don't get caught in the Third Party Grader - CAC box. Both of those entities sometimes have motives that do not include getting the grades right. Advanced collectors and dealers maintain their standards and do not follow the herd. Edited by billjones 04/29/2017 3:22 pm Report this Post to the Staff
numismatic student Bedrock of the Community United States 11904 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 3:51 pm bill, I disagree with your assessment. If you look at the hair and the cap, especially at the tail of the cap, you see full, sharp separation between the cap and the hair, and in the hair detail. I see a full line between the cap and the hair from top to bottom. I also see hair detail throughout all of the hairline. This clearly meets the minimum standard for full head and is much better than the just short of full head illustration. I really think that your general disdain for TPG grading keeps you from being objective about today's effective grading standards. And again, you continue beating the drum that I don't think for myself and just take as gospel the TPG assessment. I actually think for myself, and in my analysis, the TPG has called it right. Everyone has standards and preferences. Thankfully we have authoritative third parties because we know what happened when everyone had their own standards in pre-TPG days. The industry was rife with abuse and lack of trust. The hobby is much better for having TPGs and will never go back to the mess that prevailed in the 70s and before. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com Edited by numismatic student 04/29/2017 4:05 pm Report this Post to the Staff
billjones Pillar of the Community United States 1499 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 4:42 pm Quote: Thankfully we have authoritative third parties because we know what happened when everyone had their own standards in pre-TPG days. The industry was rife with abuse and lack of trust. The hobby is much better for having TPGs and will never go back to the mess that prevailed in the 70s and before. The third party graders have done some very good things for the hobby. I'll freely admit that. The trouble is their standards have slipped over the past two to three years. A lot of coins that were in AU-55 and 58 holders are now in MS-61 and 62 holders. I know that because I and others have traced through the auction records and photos and see the same coins in different holders. There are many new "thick" PCGS holders around these days, and many of those coins are at least their second trip though the grading room. Some of these over graded coins are sitting in my collection. I bought them because the sets I have been putting together, like the Classic Head $2.50 and $5.00 gold coins, are very hard to find in Choice AU and true Mint State, and if you want them, you buy what's available or pass on collecting them. I've not been forcing the market; I've been working on these sets for over five years. The rarest of these coins have known populations that number of only 10 to 15 examples in Choice AU to Mint State, which are my target grades. Some of the best coins have ruined by coin doctors who are looking to make a quick buck. The Dukes Creek Collection of southern gold comes immediately to mind. I have tried to help you, but you seem to think that the only people who are expert graders work for the grading services. That is not true. There are many collectors and dealers who know more than those work in the grading rooms especially in their areas of study and expertise. There have been times when the grading services have paid these people as consultants. There are also political aspects to the grades on some coins and the stickers. Sometimes people scratch each other's backs and one hand washes the other. You learn that in this business. You think I'm a bias old fool, but 58 years of experience is worth something. From here on out I will refrain from responding to your requests for grades. It's obvious that I am not pleasing you with my advice and observations. Edited by billjones 04/29/2017 4:43 pm Report this Post to the Staff
numismatic student Bedrock of the Community United States 11904 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 4:53 pm Quote: You think I'm a bias old fool, but 58 years of experience is worth something. From here on out I will refrain from responding to your requests for grades. It's obvious that I am not pleasing you with my advice and observations. I certainly don't think that and you are welcome to choose to weigh into what you like. Your passive-aggressive suggestion that I only welcome advice that pleases me is par for the course for what I expect from you. I'm not perfect, but I will continue to argue my positions as objectively as I can. I have appreciated efforts that you have made to help me. I think I have said it before and I will say it again - thank you. Quote: With coin grading skepticism is a good thing. Don't get caught in the Third Party Grader - CAC box. Both of those entities sometimes have motives that do not include getting the grades right. Advanced collectors and dealers maintain their standards and do not follow the herd. I have been annoyed by your continued insinuations that I do not conduct my own analysis, and blindly rely on the TPGs. I am highly skeptical of TPG grades and always come here for others' thoughts. I believe that your continued mischaracterizations of my reliance on TPG opinions go over the line. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com Edited by numismatic student 04/29/2017 5:29 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Coinfrog Bedrock of the Community United States 94367 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 5:50 pm C'mon, numismatic student, tone it down. This guy's creds way outweigh yours. He doesn't deserve attitude. Report this Post to the Staff
MikeF Pillar of the Community United States 3479 Posts	Posted 04/29/2017 10:41 pm Ditto on toning it down. I'm here to learn from those with more experience. I'm always happy to hear Bill Jones assessments whether I like them or not Report this Post to the Staff
billjones Pillar of the Community United States 1499 Posts	Posted 04/30/2017 08:57 am The last time this 1916 Standing Liberty quarter sold in a public auction was in November 2010. Stacks'-Bowers sold it for $195,500. Since then two others in MS-67 have been auctioned. Stacks'- Bowers sold one in August 2012 for $138,000, and Heritage sold another in January 2015 for $146,875. You can go to "Coin Facts" to find the links and look at the pictures of the three coins. After you have compared them, do you think that this is worth almost $50,000 more than the other two? I think not, but one of the factors in that is that the coin market has gone down since 2010, although I've yet to participate in that decline. The coins I buy are still expense, and it seems like I get taken the woodshed every time I bid in an auction. When you reach the point that you can afford to buy a coin that is brings $195,500, you get picky, or at least I do. You look for everything that might not support that price. That's what I'm saying about this piece. It's a wonderful coin, but even "wonderful" has its limits as to how much you are willing to pay, and how much you relay on the opinions of others that run contrary to what you see. This advice applies to $200,000 coins and to $200 coins if their value is dependent upon a superior high grade like MS-67. Report this Post to the Staff
numismatic student Bedrock of the Community United States 11904 Posts	Posted 04/30/2017 10:58 am This coin has the best eye appeal out of all 67 1916s. Details that are obvious immediately at first glance matter. In August 2010, an ms67 1916 sold on heritage for $54,625. In the same year, within 3 months, there was a $140k spread within grade. For colllectors in the TPG set registry era, the finest coin available translates into awards and recognition. In this country not many strive to come in second. For most of us, $140k is a lot of money. You can't apply the way we think to the behavior of folks for whom $140k is pocket change. These collectors are still knowledgeable, well-advised and sophisticated in many cases. But it is easy for them to make $140k expenditure decisions, when in their day jobs they make decisions affecting hundreds of billions of $s every day. The 1916 isn't especially rare. PCGS and NGC have graded over 600 of them, although some of those are certainly resubmits. But the demand for this coin is gigantic. And demand for the finest at large premium is natural as it always has been. A 25% premium for the finest of a famous key coin does not seem unreasonable. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com Edited by numismatic student 04/30/2017 11:09 am Report this Post to the Staff
billjones Pillar of the Community United States 1499 Posts	Posted 04/30/2017 12:19 pm The coin that sold for $54,625 was an NGC MS-67, Full Head, that had been dipped. It had black stain to the right of Ms. Liberty's that had not dipped out, and a mark on her breast that matters when you are grading such a coin MS-67. Bottom line, that coin did not measure up to the grade. It might have made MS-65 in crossover, but that's it. But if you are buying registry points and not coins, it makes sense for collectors who think that way. As for collectors "who spend $140,000 like it's pocket change," I've met and done business with a few of them, and they not "snow flacks" who are easily fooled by labels. Stupid people might inherit a lot of money, but they usually have not made it. The ones who know what they are doing can be darn demanding. That's why the NGC coins sell for $54,000 while the PCGS coins sell for $140,000. Adjusted to add, Heritage has sold or tried to sell that coin at least four times. You don't even have to compare the photos; the serial numbers on the slab are the same. It sold for $97,750 in 2005, $74,750 in 2007 and twice for $54,625 in 2009 and '10. I'd be willing to wager than the last to sales might have been buy-ins although I know Heritage started to report "no sales" at auctions a few years ago. The Internet is truly a powerful tool. It makes much harder to hide stuff than it was in "the old days." Edited by billjones 04/30/2017 12:34 pm Report this Post to the Staff
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Grade My Favorite Coin - A Special 1916 SLQ - Some Day...