Possible Error Or Counterfeit/Fake French 20 Francs

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Author	Replies: 9 / Views: 11,167
cedargrove Valued Member Canada 138 Posts	Posted 05/03/2017 3:53 pm I purchased this 1908 French Marianne a couple of years ago, but only recently researched it and noticed a few things that cause me concern. The first concern is that it has a medallic orientation, whereas French coins typically have a coin orientation. The second concern is that the edge writing reads DIEU PROTeGe LA FRANCE however, according to the Standard Catalogue, coins dated up to 1906 (KM #847) have this edge writing, and from 1907 onwards (KM #857) the writing was changed to LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE. Note that KM#857 was also officially re-struck, possibly in the 1930s or 1950s. I own other Mariannes from 1906 and 1908 and they are both coin orientation, and each has the correct edge lettering for their years. I took the coin to two different dealers, and they both weighed and tested it to verify the correct weight of 6.45 grams. The composition is 89% gold, 10% copper and 1% silver, whereas other Marianne's tested at 90% gold and 10% copper. The dealers also commented that if this was a fake then it's the best fake they've seen. I have since compared this coin to my other Mariannes and found two smaller discrepancies: 1) the three grass blades at the front foot of the rooster are almost non-existent, and 2) the N on J.C.CHAMPLAIN seems stretched out on the coin in question. If this coin is in fact a fake then I won't be too upset as I paid a little over spot. However I wonder if it's a variation or error, and I turn to the knowledgeable people on this forum to ask if anyone has additional information. Thanks for reading. Report this Post to the Staff

NumisRob Bedrock of the Community United Kingdom 17947 Posts	Posted 05/03/2017 6:56 pm Hi cedargrove and to the Forum! This is a real mystery! I have three different French coin catalogues and have just checked them. None mention this variety. I wonder if it is a fake made in the Middle East in the 1950s and 1960s - they made quite a lot of counterfeit British sovereigns then (often of full weight and gold content) so perhaps they also made fake Rooster 20F coins for the French market? I have a 1909 20F that I'm pretty sure is genuine: it was purchased about 30 years ago from a reputable dealer. I posted a photo of it in the "How Far Back Can We Go?" thread: http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...1909_20F.jpg My Trade List: https://goccf.com/t/194596 My Wants List: https://goccf.com/t/191710 Edited by NumisRob 05/03/2017 7:04 pm Report this Post to the Staff
thq Pillar of the Community United States 3343 Posts	Posted 05/03/2017 7:54 pm I'm reading my cc of Le Franc on them right now. First possibility is one of the 1948 restrikes. These are more reddish due to more copper in the metal, and the dies don't have polish lines. But the edge inscription is still wrong. These coins have been counterfeited too. The first group attributed to the Russians are badly done and Le Franc says they would fool no one. But modern counterfeits are noted from Italy and Lebanon too. And then there's an ambiguous group - which may be restrikes or counterfeits - which are distinguished by a longer small tail feather above the F in Fcs. Le Franc notes nothing about any wrong edge inscriptions 1907-1914, and that makes it almost certainly a fake. The other thing I note in your picture is the poorly executed rim detail. The ovals and "lys" spacers should be a lot more perfect than what I see. Some of your ovals look like jellybeans. Here's a genuine 1908 in high grade for comparison. http://www.cgb.fr/20-francs-or-coq-...02687,a.html In the end, it's just common gold anyway. I sold a bunch of common 20F's on the gold peak and was happy to get bullion price. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire Edited by thq 05/03/2017 8:02 pm Report this Post to the Staff
cedargrove Valued Member Canada 138 Posts	Posted 05/04/2017 07:13 am Thanks NumisRob and thq for your responses. @thq - Regarding the colour, this coin is actually slightly whiter than my others (maybe because of the 1% silver?). Regarding the rim detail, you're absolutely right, most of the "ovals" are anything but oval in shape - quite poor when I look at them more closely. @NumisRob - I've read that some fake sovereigns are only 18-20 carats (versus 22), but out of curiousity, why would someone fake a sovereign with the full gold content? Maybe to fake a rare version? My Marianne isn't rare but is missing 1% of the gold which might explain the motive for the faker, but it seems like a lot of trouble to make such a small profit. Maybe with enough volume it's worth their effort. I also wonder how fakes are make. Do they create a mold and cast it? If so, it seems odd why/how they would change the orientation. I am more convinced this is a fake and not some rare variety, but not too upset. I am buying these coins primarily for bullion. In addition, the very reputable dealer who sold it to me was willing to allow me to exchange it. Thanks again for your help. Report this Post to the Staff
NumisRob Bedrock of the Community United Kingdom 17947 Posts	Posted 05/04/2017 2:13 pm Quote: why would someone fake a sovereign with the full gold content? This is a quotation from "Collecting English Coins" by David Nash: "In 1957 the Treasury sanctioned the issue of sovereigns with the bust of Elizabeth II. These were produced to counteract forged sovereigns that were being made on the Continent, believed to be of Italian origin. Other forged sovereigns were traced from Beirut. These forgeries, which were of good weight and of 22-carat gold, were being used for world trade. This situation was made possible by the genuine sovereign being more highly valued than its bullion content." My Trade List: https://goccf.com/t/194596 My Wants List: https://goccf.com/t/191710 Report this Post to the Staff
cedargrove Valued Member Canada 138 Posts	Posted 05/04/2017 6:24 pm @NuisRob - Very interesting. Thanks. Report this Post to the Staff
cedargrove Valued Member Canada 138 Posts	Posted 05/04/2017 6:25 pm Oops, meant @NumisRob. Still haven't figured out how to edit posts. Report this Post to the Staff
Arkie Pillar of the Community United States 2637 Posts	Posted 05/05/2017 10:49 am Same dynamic as the private minting of Spanish 8 reales in the US in the 19th century for use in the China trade. They had the full silver content, but were worth more as 8 reales. Report this Post to the Staff
thq Pillar of the Community United States 3343 Posts	Posted 05/06/2017 5:57 pm Another bit of information on the counterfeiting of 20F gold coins from Le Franc. Around 1970 the 20F's were selling at a 100% premium over bullion. Counterfeiters had a tremendous incentive to make high quality gold coins. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire Edited by thq 05/06/2017 5:58 pm Report this Post to the Staff
cedargrove Valued Member Canada 138 Posts	Posted 05/07/2017 09:22 am Thanks all. I always understood why some of the rarer coins have value beyond the gold content. However I didn't realize there was a time in the mid 20th C when the higher production coins were valued significantly more than the gold content for everyday use (particularly considering the value of gold increased well above the coin's stated value after the franc was taken off the gold standard). I appreciate the input. Report this Post to the Staff
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Possible Error Or Fake French 20 Francs