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Rare Constantine I - Victoriae Laetae With Engraver's Error

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Finn235's Avatar
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6130 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2017  2:56 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Cleaning up the backlog and finally gave this one the attention it deserves. Bought it only roughly attributed as part of a 5 coin lot maybe 3 months ago.

Constantine I AE3
IMP CONSTANTI-NVS PF AVG, Helmeted high crested bust left holding spear and shield
VICTORIAE LAETAE PRINC PERP, Two victories holding wreath inscribed "VOT RP (sic)" on altar
Siscia, mintmark Delta-SIS *
RIC VIII Siscia 95 (?)
Rare

Rare-Constantine-I---Victoriae-Laetae-With-Engraver's-Error
Rare-Constantine-I---Victoriae-Laetae-With-Engraver's-Error

Had originally intended to sell this one, but I think I'll hold out until money gets a bit tighter.

Figured I would share and ask the advice of the LRB nerds here... is my attribution correct? The exact number apparently depends on the altar type, which here appears to be blank and concave. Is the wreath error a known variety, and if so how does that impact the rarity?
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tenbobbit's Avatar
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2017  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Finn, the Obverse legend is the shorter version without the PF.
If the MM is an A then I have it as RIC VII SISCIA 50.
This is Victors site where I did my checking -
http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/
The right hand column has pages dedicated to Siscia issue VLPP's.
Damion
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 05/12/2017  6:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice looking coin. You may already be aware of this site: http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/sis3/
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lrbguy's Avatar
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949 Posts
 Posted 05/13/2017  3:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the officina letter is <epsilon> not <delta>.

The obverse shield decoration appears rather interesting. It is not a plain shield, but has four "petals" and a central dot. Not familiar with that one. You might see if anyone has illustrated it before. (VLPPs are not my strong suit.)
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tenbobbit's Avatar
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701 Posts
 Posted 05/13/2017  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Check the link to Victors site that myself and Ron posted Ellarby, a whole host of variations to consider.
I too thought that the MM could be Epsilon but stylistically it matches A and with the Obverse legend break along with the Altar style I came up with RIC VII 50.
Take a look and let us know what you think.
Nearly forgot, the shield design is listed.
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lrbguy's Avatar
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 Posted 05/14/2017  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can see why you might want to call the officina letter an A, but if you blow up the image and take a close look you will see that the three terminations on the right side of the figure are not actually joined into a single line as they would be on an A.

Rare-Constantine-I---Victoriae-Laetae-With-Engraver's-Error


As for your comment that if the officina letter is an A then the ID must be RIC VII Siscia 50, I don't follow your thought, since #50 is attested for all five officinae in RIC. How are you interpreting Victor's notes?
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tenbobbit's Avatar
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 Posted 05/14/2017  11:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't say it " must " be RIC VII 50 Ellarby.
It was merely my interpretation that's all.
The * MM is only on RIC 49 & 50 from what I am aware so it must be 1 of those 2.
RIC 49 doesn't have a shield on the shoulder leaving RIC VII 50.
I did consider Epsilon as I said in my previous post, but I couldn't find the Obverse legend match for it & neither does the Altar match up.
That said, the shield design is a match for RIC VII 50 Epsilon.
All said I opted for RIC VII 50 " A " or Variety " A "
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Finn235's Avatar
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 Posted 05/14/2017  11:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for that link! I'll have to browse over it sometime when I have a spare hour or two!

It is curious how many different varieties there are of this reverse type... I had never suspected! I wonder if the different altar types etc once meant something to whoever engraved the coin... if only the coins could talk!
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lrbguy's Avatar
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949 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2017  12:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I mean no disrespect, tenbobbit, nor do I mean to offend. I would rather keep silent than be taken that way. However, I must caution against the way that Victor's site is being interpreted in this case. Victor only meant to illustrate some of the items listed in RIC. His collection is not exhaustive, nor do his examples define the forms or substance of the various RIC entries.


Quote:
The * MM is only on RIC 49 & 50 from what I am aware so it must be 1 of those 2.


If you meant the form of mm with a star at the end of an exergual mark, you must go two pages further to the entries for Siscia 95. These have the same style mm, albeit with special treatment of the altar bearing the letters I or S. That is a bit easier to detect in the book version of RIC VII.


Quote:
RIC 49 doesn't have a shield on the shoulder leaving RIC VII 50.


In RIC that distinction is the difference between H11 and H12. #50 uses the H12 bust type, and so does #95. Sometimes Victor mentions the type number, sometimes he describes it without reference to the type number.


Quote:
I did consider Epsilon as I said in my previous post, but I couldn't find the Obverse legend match for it & neither does the Altar match up.


The problem here is in associating the obverse break pattern with the various officinae. Correlations like that do occur and are sometimes significant, but in this case the correlation breaks down. Victor's list is not exhaustive.

The Altar match is found in the Appendix to the listings for RIC VII Siscia. There Bruun illustrates 28 altar types he associates variously with RIC numbers 47-72 And breaks it down with 1 1/2 pages of notes. In addition to the list of 28, he has a 29th entry for any type he did not include but may surface nonetheless. He also has a comprehensive note that applies to the whole range of the appendix and describes the situation with our study coin to a tee: Particularly among the blank altars, or those decorated with a dot, the narrow altar type also occurs, with slightly concave sides and a shield flat on top.



Quote:
That said, the shield design is a match for RIC VII 50 Epsilon.


Here again, making a correlation between shield design and officina will not pan out when you consider the larger mass of material. Victor gives attested examples, not definitive categories.
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tenbobbit's Avatar
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 Posted 05/15/2017  05:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I stand corrected, I dismissed RIC 95 because of the altar style not matching up, all the 95's appear to have a letter inscribed on the altar but I forgot about the * MM. My bad.
All of this said I still think it is RIC VII 50 - ?.

P.S - no offence taken
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lrbguy's Avatar
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 Posted 05/15/2017  10:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lrbguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the words of confidence, my friend. We are absolutely on the same page about the basic identity with RIC VII Siscia #50. Our differences concern the relation between the variations of detail. Based entirely on letter form in the mm I see no good reason to deny this as a product of officina epsilon. I still would like to see an illustration somewhere else of the shield design we see on this one.
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