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Replies: 28 / Views: 4,749 |
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Valued Member
Canada
185 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9864 Posts |
There is more than one variety of far 6, yours is not one of them.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning... -from PCGS website
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5588 Posts |
Since the 6 was handpunched into each die, there are many many positions of the 6 ... high, low, near, far and every increment, as well, for each direction. What some books and the CaC show as a "far 6" is really a far far 6, high and rotated slightly CCW. ICCS and most TPG's no longer will cert any "far 6" because every die had a different spacing so there is no standard to go by. Yours is as close to "normal" as you can get.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
agree with okiecoiner fully...
at some point I got "far 6 fever"...I came up with 3 favourite "Far 6s" each of which had distinct die cracks, to identify each particular "Far 6" type exactly...
but that's just me...there are 5 or 6 or 8 maybe even more types...
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
24885 Posts |
Edited by Dorado 06/01/2017 04:11 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9864 Posts |
Quote: For more information ,please visit: I think you made a typo there Dorado. Should have been "For misinformation ,please visit:" That's what okiecoiner alluded to in this and other threads about large cent varieties,he should know as he is literally one of those who "wrote the book".
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning... -from PCGS website
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
24885 Posts |
Quote: Should have been "For misinformation ,please visit: Please, respect the opinions of others. Educational information always comes from different sources... You pick the one ,that suits you.
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Valued Member
Canada
56 Posts |
Quote: Should have been "For misinformation ,please visit:" @DBM: In an effort to clarify any "misinformation", I would like you to clarify your point of view regarding this. Any erroneous information will be analyzed and withdrawn if corroborated. @Nikon: There are many certified Far 6 ICCS 1896 1-cent coins and yours doesn't fit in that category. This variety is known since Zoell in 1966.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9864 Posts |
okiecoiner and canadian-varieties, who are very knowledgable in this area post here that there are quite a number of far 6 varieties. Dorado posts that for more infomation we should look at a site that has less information and does not say anything about a number of far 6 varieties but rather leads us to assume there is only one, and it is Zoell#J16b. Things have changed a lot in the over 50 years since Zoell published. Nowhere on that site does it state there are more known far 6 varieties, anyone looking there first without reading otherwise in a thread such as this would be led to believe there is only one known far 6 variety.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning... -from PCGS website
Edited by DBM 06/08/2017 4:09 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
Hi DBM, So, you are saying that we should not take Coins and Canada as a reference?
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Valued Member
Canada
56 Posts |
Thank you. That information you mentioned was added. You are welcome to send us your recommandations, ideas and tell us your opinion in private to emend potentiel "omissions?" like this. We will be happy to help.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9864 Posts |
Quote: So, you are saying that we should not take Coins and Canada as a reference? Not at all. Just pointing out, as I have before, that there are errors and omissions on that site and we must be careful as to what we take from there at face value. That said, there is also no other site with as much valid information, it's the best single source of online Canadian coin info despite its shortcomings. It seems the "forum dad" there lightw4re is very open to suggestions and making corrections,in the future I will direct any criticisms to him directly rather than on a public forum.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning... -from PCGS website
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5588 Posts |
I use CaC as only ONE of the references that CAN be used. It is not the bible and I find a great deal of misinformation in there, but lots of valuable info as well. It is no different than other sites and publications and that's why you never use just ONE place to get your info. There is a reason why TPG's have stopped certifying 1896 "far 6's". There is every position of the 6 under the sun possible,so which one is it? How far is far? Zoell never gave any other markers, nor did Griffin. Here are Griffin's description of the gap between the 9 & 6 of the 13 varieties that he found, but many more have been found in the 25+ years since he wrote it. Here are the 9 & 6 gaps in Griffin's words: "very close, close, less close, close, quite close, quite close, quite close, wider, wider, wider, wider, wider, wide, very wide." I will also add that we found many many discrepencies in Griffin when we wrote the 2011 variety section for Charlton.... and even sent in the items needed to correct the VERY incorrect Monograph 1 to Charlton, where the addendum has sat for 7 years. Again, the last two digits on the '96 were handpunched. With an average reverse die life of about 40,000 coins struck and 2 million minted, that's 50 different placements of the "6" for the guy with the hammer and punch. Griffin was not really a "variety guide". It was based almost entirely on the digit spacing in the date and then a "few" markers may have been mentioned. Zoell saw and photo'd many of the '96's but even he gave up. Charlton and ICCS both refuse to even mention the coin and Trends needs to clean house of it as well. Louis at ICCS sometimes will still cert one if it is exceptionally wide and the owner is known. I have submitted corrections to Cac numerous times in the past, but saw very little actually implemented, so I quit doing it .. I thought that it fell on deaf ears. However, the photos, mintage figures, and examples are a great source for any collector. Any reference, publication, or collector site should be just ONE of as many sources that you should use to make reasonable assumptions. I've researched large cent varieties for 40 years and still find nuggets of new info, some of it from CaC... it's a site that SHOULD be used. My personal opinion is that "new submissions" are not vetted thoroughly or things researched before they show up in print there. It's much easier to get something new incorporated that having something old "corrected" and there is a good deal of misleading info there... however, I look at the site at least 2-3 times a week. I'm not badmouthing the site ... it's just my personal opinion as a researcher and collector/hoarder.
Edited by okiecoiner 06/09/2017 04:21 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5588 Posts |
I just tried to upload examples of 7-8 different "far 6's", but it won't let me attach photos ... sorry.
But here is the introductory that was to be attached to the string of "different" supposed far 6's:
"In order for a "variety" to be a variety, it has to have come from one single die or die pairing/marriage. That's why any true variety is always correctly ID'd with a set of distinctive markers. You need to have the variety specifically delineated before you can publish it.
I looked back into some old (10-15 years ago) QX-5 photos of some of the many different '96 dies that COULD BE referred to as "far 6"... all have different markers. You can see why ICCS and Charlton quit even referring to them as an "accepted" variety. There aren't enough names to give to all the different placements of any 6 that even looks "far", let alone the normal or narrow ones. In addition to looking at the difference in the 9-5 and 9-6 spacings comparison, look specifically at the different vertical placements and the slight rotation (CW & CCW) of each of these:"
Edited by okiecoiner 06/09/2017 04:59 am
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Valued Member
Canada
56 Posts |
Here's some examples found by the community of the french version of Coinsandcanada. 
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5588 Posts |
Lightw4re ... Technically, there can't be different coins and have them all be examples.... each variety comes from a specific die and, hopefully, has some other markers to properly classify it as that "variety".. You can have many examples of a 6 that has a bigger gap than the gaps at 1-8 and and 8-9, but there can only be one "far 6" from a book. The first coin that ICCS certified as a "far 6" was what we called on CCRS a far, far high 6, rotated slightly CCW. I initially ID'd it for the owner from Hamilton, because we had been discussing that type irregularity for well over a year... it was an example of the widest gap and most offset. The owner gave it to Rick Simpson, a well-known Hamilton-area dealer who was also VP of CAND at the time and also the Editor of Trends. He hand delivered it to Bill Cross at Charlton who hand delivered it to Brian at ICCS. It became the very first 1896 "far 6" to be certified (it was XF) and that specific die became the "standard" and any coin thus certified as a "far 6" had to EXACTLY match that first one. The one that is in Zoell and the one on the CaC page IS NOT what has been accepted as a 'far 6". When Louis started CCCS, he would cert any '96 that had a 9-6 gap wider than the 8-9 gap as a "far 6". ICCS stopped certing the "far 6" almost 5 years ago and Charlton removed it from the front of the Charlton guide because so many people were confused about what a "far 6" meant .. how far was far. The same thing has happened to the 1859 "low 9" or will in short order. How low is low? What was the EXACT position of the one that started it off and is accepted as the standard? There are approx 200 Reverse 1859 dies and each working die was hand-punched. That means that, technically, there are 200 different positions for the 9 to be placed. That's why there are specific markers for 1859 DP 1-5, 2 types of 9/6 and 3 types of TP's and every other numismatic variety that has been properly published. Varieties are very specific and, if everyone doesn't know that, then the word needs to get out .. I've tried for nearly 20 years. The "far 6" misnomer has run amuck .. just take a look on ebay when you look for "1896 far 6". You have everything from very close to far, far and high. It sends chills down my spine and I shake my head to then go into the "advanced" section of the same description and see how newbies and neophytes have wasted good money on a common coin, when you look at what has actually "sold" under that description. The CaC ID page just continues to muddy the water.
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Replies: 28 / Views: 4,749 |