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1798 Draped Bust Cent - Experts Needed

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Beefer518's Avatar
United States
887 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2017  7:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Beefer518 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I picked up this cull early last week, as I'm a sucker for cheap early copper, and it would be a decent hole filler. It was labeled as 1802, and it's so close to slick, it's hard to tell the date with the naked eye. I photo-document all my coins, and looking at the photo, I saw it was a 1798, and not an 1802. Cool, I thought to myself.

Then I got to looking at it, and something seemed off. Where the bust's breasts swoop up on the right, mine seems to fall sharply down, and come to a 90 degree point near the denticles (or denticle area).

I told my local shop guy about it, and he wanted me to bring it in, in hopes of figuring out why it is the way it is, and if if was from wear or something else. So today I showed it to him, and he was intrigued. He put it under his microscope to see if he could see anything that would indicate PMD (modification by a previous possessor) or just maybe a weird wear pattern. He saw nothing indicative of either, or anything saying the outline is anything other than original.

He has a graded from NGC coming into the shop tomorrow, and he's going to show it to him, to see if he says it should be further evaluated. But, I'm a little impatient, and want to see if anyone here has some guesses.

First image is the obverse of the coin.

In the second photo, the area of interest is circled. You can see that the 'breast' area comes to a sharp point near the denticles, and there is a well-defined line from that point to the shoulder (?) area.

The animation is an overlay of a 1798 DBC on top of my coin, showing how a 'normal' DBC looks, blending into mine. I tried to line the two images up as exactly as I could, and the bust's facial profile is a match.

Third is an image of the reverse of my coin, which seems to match up fine with a 'normal' example.

So what do you guys think?



1798-Draped-Bust-Cent---Experts-Needed

1798-Draped-Bust-Cent---Experts-Needed

1798-Draped-Bust-Cent---Experts-Needed

1798-Draped-Bust-Cent---Experts-Needed
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Spence's Avatar
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34402 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2017  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What do I think? Well, that last digit does look more like an 8 than a 2 to me. I'm sure other folks with more experience will weigh in pretty quickly.

Also, that animation is pretty neat. I now see that a few folks have experimented with them on CCF in the past, but I hadn't bumped into any of them previously.
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Beefer518's Avatar
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887 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2017  8:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Beefer518 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Spence. The date is a confirmed 1798, it's the shape of the breast area of the bust we're trying to figure out.

Yeah, the animation works pretty well, and I'd lkike to do them for toned coins and to show cartwheel luster, but they're a little time consuming.
Edited by Beefer518
06/05/2017 8:26 pm
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RoyCoinBoy's Avatar
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1609 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2017  9:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RoyCoinBoy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe PMD cut out a section of the bust?
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paralyse's Avatar
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12057 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2017  11:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
S-153.

See: http://www.PCGScoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/36029

On later die states, a Cud forms at the rim at the end of the bust, and by the very latest die state, it is absolutely massive, engulfing the foremost part of the bust and much of the rim in the area.

For an example: http://www.early-copper.com/coinpics/s153.jpg

With the advanced wear seen on this coin, the Cud would merge with the features of the bust design.
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  10:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is a 1798.
I don't see the Cud that forms on 153. (also 153 is a large 8 variety, this is a small 8.)
I don't believe the shape of the bust is off, that "line" is causing confusion and makes it appear the bust is following that contour. It isn't. On the animation if you watch the countor of the other coin as if fades to your coin you can see it is still there.
Edited by Conder101
06/06/2017 10:50 am
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paralyse's Avatar
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12057 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2017  10:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Conder, good points. I think you are probably correct. That leaves me at a loss to explain this coin, which has a profile more strongly resembling the busts on British George III coppers.

I think it's probably just an advanced state of wear.
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Beefer518's Avatar
United States
887 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2017  12:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Beefer518 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a small update. Haven't heard back from the coin shop, so either the NGC grader didn't show up, or they're still looking into it. As soon as I do hear something, I'll update again.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and opinions on this, it's an interesting curiosity. Conder1, I see what you're pointing out, but if the full bust was there at some point, what would account for the wear pattern, and such a strong edge between worn and unworn (if that makes sense).

If anyone has photoshop, and would like the file to play around with the opacity of the overlay, send me an email, and I'll send you the file so you can see it in full resolution.
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Crazyb0's Avatar
10197 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2017  01:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beefer, like that animation. Maybe because I have monovision, that gives me an advantage to notice minute differences/similarities on coins like this and that 1922 no D. I see most all the details on your coin with the exception of what is directly at 5 o'clock where its just worn away too much. All the curls and squiggles are there, although either there is some downward metal movement toward 6 o'clock, which may be late die state as well. Don't think there's a question to be had on that. Dang, that's one of the two large cent/half cents I need for my 7070. Guess I need to really start looking!
Edited by Crazyb0
06/07/2017 01:34 am
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