United States Mint Releases Updated Details On 2015 Silver American Eagle Production

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Author	Replies: 36 / Views: 7,714	Page: of 3
CCFPress Press Manager United States 1420 Posts	Posted 07/01/2017 1:18 pm US Mint - The information below updates the American Eagle Bullion Note to Editors from the Mint on May 26, 2017, regarding erroneous information that was released on March 20, 2017, in response to a request made pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act. The erroneous information, as well as confusion surrounding the Mint's use of internal manufacturing tracking numbers—specifically those connected with American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins - resulted in a mistaken belief that some of these coins are rarities. As stated in the May 26 Note to Editors, the Mint offers bullion coins through Authorized Purchasers to provide investors the opportunity to acquire precious metal coins at a slight premium to spot market prices. As such, all American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins are, by their very nature, homogeneous. None of these coins bears a mint mark designating the facility where it was produced. The Mint's goal is to ensure that the American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins struck at any of these three facilities are identical and indistinguishable from one another. The Results of a Comprehensive Review by Mint Staff The information released on March 20 incorrectly stated that the box numbers of American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins minted in West Point in 2015 each had six digits, while those minted in Philadelphia had five digits. 2015 American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins minted in West Point were packaged in one of two ways: manually, or by one of the West Point Mint's two Auto-tuber machines. 2015 American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins minted in Philadelphia were all packaged manually. The coins were shipped in so-called "monster boxes," each of which contains 25 tubes of 20 coins, for a total of 500 coins in each box. All monster boxes of 2015 American Eagle Silver Bullion coins minted in West Point bore a computer-generated label that included "WPM." Labels on manually packaged (or "hand-tubed") boxes included "WPM," but were not numbered. The box tracking numbers were hand written on the boxes of hand-tubed coins. Labels on boxes packaged by Auto-tuber #1 and Auto-tuber #2 bore "WPM" followed by a five- or six-digit number. The box tracking numbers were also hand written on the boxes. Monster boxes of 2015 American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins minted in Philadelphia did not have a computer-generated tracking number label. Box tracking numbers were hand written directly on the boxes. A monster box with its original computer-generated label containing "WPM" followed by: no number, a five-digit tracking number, or a six-digit tracking number would indicate that the coins were struck at West Point. Box tracking numbers 10001 through 10159 were used on boxes of coins minted in Philadelphia. Those same box tracking numbers were also used on coins minted in West Point. However, only the West Point monster boxes were shipped with computer-generated labels. Because of duplication of box tracking numbers at Philadelphia and West Point, as well as any mistakes in labeling or the possibility that labels on the boxes could have been removed or altered at any time after shipping, the Mint will make no attempt to "verify" the origin of any boxes using techniques related to tracking numbers, labels, or otherwise. Philadelphia 79,500 one-ounce units delivered to West Point Mint for shipping. (The information released on March 20, 2017 stated that 79,640 one-ounce units were produced; that number is accurate, but includes 140 units condemned and not shipped. Only 79,500 one-ounce units were delivered to West Point for shipping.) Assigned Box numbers 10001-10159 for internal tracking purposes. Box numbers were hand written on box only. Data on labels did not include box numbers or any sort of Mint identifier. "West Point Mint" was printed on the banding of all boxes shipped from West Point. West Point 46,920,500 1-ounce units produced and shipped from the West Point Mint. Hand Tubed Assigned Box numbers 11001-23451 for internal tracking purposes Box numbers 11001-23451 hand written on box only Labels were West Point-specific but did not include box numbers "West Point Mint" was printed on the banding of all boxes shipped from West Point Auto-tuber #1: Assigned Box numbers 00001-31100 for internal tracking purposes Box numbers 00001-31100 hand written on box and printed on label. Mint specific label with number - (WPM 00001-WPM 31100) Hand written number on box did not have WPM prefix and may not have had leading zeroes. "West Point Mint" was printed on the banding of all boxes shipped from West Point Auto-tuber #2: Box numbers 200001 - 250200 hand written on box and printed on label. Mint specific label with number - (WPM 200001-WPM 250200) Hand written number on box did not have the WPM prefix "West Point Mint" was printed on the banding of all boxes shipped from West Point San Francisco No Silver Bullion coins were produced at the San Francisco Mint in 2015. Report this Post to the Staff

alvaro77 Valued Member United States 124 Posts	Posted 07/01/2017 2:02 pm So there's duplicate monster boxes with same tracking numbers 10001-10159 for both P and WP mints,Wp boxes had computer generated labels and p mint did not, so dealers could just remove the label on the WP boxes and it will make it a P mint coin. So the slab 2015P coins from boxes 10001-10159 are from both mints. There's really no assurance it's really a P coin. You just have to take the TPG and dealers word for it that they didn't remove the computer generated labels to make it a P minted coin. So the population report is gonna show more than 79640 in the future, because there mix P and WP mints. The question now is, did NGC and PCGS just grade all the boxes 10001-10159 they got as 2015 P with out checking if it had or didn't had a computer generated label or if it was removed or did they even notice that. Probably not cause the news just came out. no way to know now, unless they still have the monster boxes and then it will be a mess to figure which coins came from what box. I guess label collectors will want the new graded coins using this new criteria making the current slabs obsolete. What about people that bought the slabs for thousands already, they only have a 50% chance it's really from the P mint. Cause graders didn't knew about this new criteria to determine origin. And even if they knew how can they prove the dealers didn't just remove the computer generated tracking sticker off to pass it as a P minted coin. That's why usmint can't verify origin. The sticker could have just felt off in transit too. Edited by alvaro77 07/01/2017 2:23 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Taphandle Valued Member United States 154 Posts	Posted 07/08/2017 10:08 am Quote: So the population report is gonna show more than 79640 in the future, because there mix P and WP mints. We didn't know about these coins until this year, they have been selling for two years. My question would be after two years how many monster boxes remained unopened? There were 94,000 monster boxes worth of ASE's minted in 2015, mixed in with those are 159 monster boxes from Philly. We will probably never really know but I would say a good many boxes with the serial numbers in question have been opened and although the number could possibly be doubled, I highly doubt it will get anywhere near the 79,500. I do believe coins have been misrepresented, and just as before they were slabbed, there is no way to tell the difference. Report this Post to the Staff
Rickguns New Member United States 16 Posts	Posted 07/09/2017 08:52 am Thank you CCF PRESS for your post. The latest press release from the Mint is hard to find. It almost seems to being kept quiet. Nobody likes bad news and this is about as bad as it gets for many Collectors. I'm afraid it will turn many away from collecting. I can't begin to imagine sitting down to the supper table and trying to explain to the wife that I dropped $5-$600 on a ASE that is actually just a $30 slabbed MS69 Eagle. Or what about those who invested from $3K-$12K on a MS70 that they were led to believe was the rarest of all ASE's? What a heartache and a financial hit! I am shocked that ebay is still allowing the "MS69's to be listed and sold as the rarest of all ASE's Any Dealer I see who is still selling these as such will be a Dealer I can no longer trust or ever buy from again. Many good honest secondary Dealers will take a hard hit on these also. I was surprised (not really) that Mezack was still trying to sell their ANAC labeled Eagles this morning. I called PCGS a couple of weeks ago to see if they were comfortable yet with the Eagles they labeled (P) The young lady was very honest and told me "NO" they were no longer labeling any Eagles as 2015(P) I asked her point blank if it would be wise to buy one of their labeled (P) Eagles and she said I wouldn't if I were you. I asked what would happen if things turned out like it has, who would be financially responsible for the incorrect labels? Would they stand behind them? She said "No" The only recourse would be go against the Mint! LOL!! Good luck with that! I have read somewhere that NGC says they have "propriety knowledge" on what is a true Philadelphia minted Eagle. It will be interesting to see how they respond now. I also read where they have a monster box of 2015 Eagles that they were waiting for the latest Mint Press Release. It will be interesting to see if they release their "propriety information" to prove their (P) Mint designation. Now to move forward what will owners do? Will ebay not allow listing (P) 2015 Eagles? Class action suits? Small Claims and Civil cases to recoup financial losses? Even the possibility of a criminal charge of fraud if a dealer now sells a (P)2015 if proven they had knowledge of the Mints June 30th Press Release? Talking to your tax man to see if you sell at a huge loss could the loss be written off on taxes? Those who paid with Paypal file a dispute as the Coin is not what it was described as? I believe you have six months after a purchase to do so. I do believe the slabs already out there will be a collectible due to being one of the largest nightmares in coin collecting. Perhaps $50 for a MS69 and maybe $200 for a MS70? I have read one of the tell tale signs of the P Minted Eagle is that they are of lesser quality. Maybe those who bought 2015 Eagles that only graded as BU might be the true winners in this whole deal. Personally I will never buy a recent minted (P,S,W) ASE. I will stick to my old favorite Morgans and for Modern PCGS or NGC certified Panda's I really enjoy how the Obverse changes every year. Report this Post to the Staff
Foxwoods Man Pillar of the Community United States 4901 Posts	Posted 07/09/2017 10:01 am Quote: Thank you CCF PRESS for your post. The latest press release from the Mint is hard to find. It almost seems to being kept quiet That info was contained in a CoinNews article posted by Cascade in the other thread on this subject on June 30th. It has not been kept quiet. Quote: I have read somewhere that NGC says they have "propriety knowledge" on what is a true Philadelphia minted Eagle. Not true Quote: Will ebay not allow listing (P) 2015 Eagles? It is a genuine coin and was properly labeled at the time. Quote: Class action suits? Small Claims and Civil cases to recoup financial losses? You would have to file against the Mint since they were the source of the erroneous info. All labeling after that was done in good faith. Quote: Talking to your tax man to see if you sell at a huge loss could the loss be written off on taxes? You can do that with any coin but only to offset gains from other sales. Quote: I have read one of the tell tale signs of the P Minted Eagle is that they are of lesser quality Again, mostly not true. There have been reports that coins from the WP Mint have less of a quality issue but there is no way to tell them apart. Remember, these are a bullion product and not collector coins. They are not subject to the same quality standards as their brothers Quote: I asked (PCGS) what would happen if things turned out like it has, who would be financially responsible for the incorrect labels? Would they stand behind them? She said "No" The only recourse would be go against the Mint! Got that one correct. PCGS only guarantees the coin to be genuine and the grade is appropriate. Edited by Foxwoods Man 07/09/2017 10:10 am Report this Post to the Staff
Rickguns New Member United States 16 Posts	Posted 07/09/2017 11:12 am The thing is though it is now known not to be a genuine P Minted Bullion device. To knowingly sell one as such with knowledge of the 6/30/2017 Press Release no matter how it's labeled when you know it's not labeled correctly without stating it is fraud. Very poor business ethics on sellers parts. No, the Press Release did not get the attention that it should of. I was on the phone with PCGS customer service last week and even asked their Rep. if the Mint ever came out with their end of June promised press release and she told me no. Nobody wanted to hear the bad news and some sellers and Dealers did not want this release any more known than possible. I dont subscribe to Coinweek, I read Coin World and that's it. If you google the subject I was only able to find the Coinweek article. I admit that I am new here BUT I know the difference between right and wrong. ANY DEALER who sells these now as the "rarest" ASE without stating that it is a possible mislabel identification of origin Mint is being unethical and unfair. I would say with certainty that any of the (P) Coins being sold on ebay are to new collectors or those who are not aware of the Mints screw-up. There is no way that now the truth is known is it ethical to sell a $30 Bullion piece for $4-$500. It speaks chapters when PCGS has washed their hands of this nightmare. From NGC: "Owing to minor variations in box appearance and coin quality, NGC graders long suspected that multiple Mints continued to be involved in the production of Silver Eagles". Edited by Rickguns 07/09/2017 11:37 am Report this Post to the Staff
Rickguns New Member United States 16 Posts	Posted 07/09/2017 12:15 pm Here is the statement from NGC: Max Spiegel, senior vice president of sales and marketing for NGC's parent company, Certified Collectibles Group, said via email May 30. "Although your article and question implies that the U.S. Mint statement affects attributions of 2015(P) American Silver Eagle bullion coins, these coins were not specifically mentioned in the official U.S. Mint statement. "We had previously determined that some U.S. Mint 'monster' boxes did not appear to conform to the numbering system released by the US Mint in response to our Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request and we therefore excluded these boxes from the criteria that we had set for Mint facility attributions. We had also paused our attribution of 2015(P) American Silver Eagle bullion coins while we waited for the response to a second FOIA request that we filed. "The U.S. Mint's May 25th statement has not changed any of our attribution policies and we await the further clarification that is expected by the end of June. We believe that we have accurately attributed the Mint facilities on all American Silver Eagle bullion coins that we have certified based on both the numbering system provided by the US Mint as well as our own criteria developed through our research." "We consider the specific criteria that we developed to evaluate and attribute these boxes and coins to be proprietary." FOXWOODS MAN..............Please read the last line again! Edited by Rickguns 07/09/2017 12:17 pm Report this Post to the Staff
cuzzx Valued Member United States 411 Posts	Posted 07/09/2017 4:54 pm This talks about the 2015 ASEs but what about the 2014 and 2016 ASE P , D an S Bullion Coin, that are out there still Report this Post to the Staff
Foxwoods Man Pillar of the Community United States 4901 Posts	Posted 07/09/2017 5:08 pm Quote: "The U.S. Mint's May 25th statement has not changed any of our attribution policies and we await the further clarification that is expected by the end of June. We believe that we have accurately attributed the Mint facilities on all American Silver Eagle bullion coins that we have certified based on both the numbering system provided by the US Mint as well as our own criteria developed through our research." "We consider the specific criteria that we developed to evaluate and attribute these boxes and coins to be proprietary." FOXWOODS MAN..............Please read the last line again! Yep, that was written in May before they received the clarification by the Mint at the end of June that rescinded the markers the Mint presented and they (NGC) required for certification. Quote: I dont subscribe to Coinweek, I read Coin World and that's it. If you google the subject I was only able to find the Coinweek article. It was CoinNews online...and you just have to read this thread. The collectors here are pretty well on top of everything. Quote: ANY DEALER who sells these now as the "rarest" ASE without stating that it is a possible mislabel identification of origin Mint is being unethical and unfair. Agree completely Report this Post to the Staff
Rickguns New Member United States 16 Posts	Posted 07/09/2017 8:17 pm The big question is then What will the current owners of these (P) Coins do with them now? Many people are taking a huge financial hit because of the Mint's release of erroneous information. This will kill collecting ASE's for many. Just as Cuzzx brings up how can the 2014 and 2016 implied mint origins be trusted? Report this Post to the Staff
Taphandle Valued Member United States 154 Posts	Posted 07/10/2017 2:52 pm Quote: I asked what would happen if things turned out like it has, who would be financially responsible for the incorrect labels? Would they stand behind them? She said "No" The only recourse would be go against the Mint! LOL!! Good luck with that! How can you go against the mint? They produced the coins and it wasn't any big deal for them to mint some of their bullion coins at other facilities. The mint never intended for any bullion to be anything other than just that. The mint never said to hurry up and slab a bunch of bullion that you can't be 100% sure about and sell them for a ridiculous amount of money just to come back to the mint to cry when the whole thing implodes. I give the TGP's as much discredit as I do to the dealers that are still selling these. Report this Post to the Staff
Rickguns New Member United States 16 Posts	Posted 07/10/2017 4:02 pm Exactly! I just repeated what the rep from PCGS told me. their only responsibility according to their fine print is to guarantee that it's a genuine ASE. As far as Mint origin they will only label as such if the coin is Mint stamped or if the Mint origin on the monster boxes are verified. Of course the Mint through a monkey wrench into the whole mess when 1st they came out saying one thing which TGP's used for a implied Mint, then the Mint came out with "ooopps! the numbers we gave were erroneous and now with the June 30th Mint Press Release ..........who know's? I just called NGC to see where they stood on this whole deal and their Rep. told me they had confirmation from the Mint that their coins were Philadelphia minted ASE's Hmmmmmm! I told her I would like to see that in black & white..........she transferred me to somone else who wasn't in the office but would call me back........I'm not holding my breath. I feel sorry for anyone who has one of these calamities in their collection......what a mess! Report this Post to the Staff
Coin_Operator Valued Member United States 74 Posts	Posted 07/10/2017 4:44 pm Well, I am one of those idiots. It was my OCD at work that made me get one as I have to be a "completest". Say what you will about collecting certified bullion, I bought a set many years ago when I started out and felt that compulsion to keep up with it. Even when all of the variations started (special finishes, anniversaries, S mint no MM etc) I kept up. The only reason I bit on this was because: A) I believed the labeling to be correct and B) I did not want to find myself in another 95P Proof situation. If these things had been out for a few years and a lot of monster boxes opened, I imagined the certifiable ones would only be a fraction of the 79K reported. The only things I have going for me is that I got an MS69, so I may be up the creek but not as bad as those who bought the MS70s and it's NGC, which there is a sliver of hope that what I have is accurate, but I don't have much faith in that happening. After my stomach returned to somewhat normal after learning about this, I imagined I may have no recourse but to view it as a very expensive learning experience and try not to get angry about all the other coins (e.g. Morgans or BU Franklins) I passed up. I suppose I'll keep going, but I don't know. The prospect of selling my ASEs seems like a decent enough idea. After all the variations and then this...it has definitely taken the luster (pun intended) off collecting these. I have a couple bad buys I keep as a reminder of my naivete. Looks like I have one more. Report this Post to the Staff
Rickguns New Member United States 16 Posts	Posted 07/10/2017 5:43 pm Coin Operator I think realistically I would try to remember for maybe for every one bad deal you got twenty others that were good deals. The most important thing is you collected what you enjoyed................that's worth a couple of hic-cups along the way? I sure hope so for you. There's always a active market for ASE's if you decide to liquidate and many nice safe Morgans out there to help ease the pain. I myself; am really backing off the ASE's.............too much of "buy this limited label" etc etc My Modern Bullion Coin additions will be a yearly Libertad and Panda...............love the certified Pandas as they change the obverse yearly. The Morgans will get much more attention I think Report this Post to the Staff
Rickguns New Member United States 16 Posts	Posted 07/10/2017 7:59 pm Had a buddy call PCGS today and he got told different than I did last week: "I spoke with PCGS and they told me that they stand behind the Philadelphia designations 100%. There is absolutely no controversy. There were 79,500 silver eagles minted at the Philadelphia mint in 2015 (159 monster boxes containing 500 coins). The first box was box 10001. This number was hand-written on the green monster box. The last box was 10159 (again, the number was hand written on the box. The only "controversy" was that some of the monster boxes that were minted in West point fall into this range between 10001 through 10159. However, these boxes have computer-driven labels (not hand-written). Also, these boxes have "WPM" stamped on them for the West Point mint. PCGS was aware of this overlap in box numbers and did not certify any coin with the computer driven label or any box with "WPM" stamped on it. They were well aware of this situation long before the June 30th mint statement." So who knows? Report this Post to the Staff
cuzzx Valued Member United States 411 Posts	Posted 07/10/2017 9:46 pm I buy ten bullion coins every year and I just know that all mine came from the San Francisco mint . I did not see the box or numbers but I have that gut feeling, I just know. Report this Post to the Staff
	Replies: 36 / Views: 7,714	Page: of 3

Last 15 Replies

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

All Forums Category: US Coins and Currency Forums Forum: US Commemoratives and Non-Circulating Coinage (NCLT) Including Grading, Varieties, and Errors

The First Dollar, your premier source for bullion and rare coins. See our bullion list on the site and the coin inventory on ebay.

Silver Gold Bull US is the United States leading bullion dealer. We deliver gold coins, gold bars, silver coins, silver bars and precious metals to your door. Order today!

View Last 100 New Topics

View Last 100 Active Topics

Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us | Advertise Here | Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum

It took 0.47 seconds to rattle this change.