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1795 Flowing Hair 50c Counterstamped...value?

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NumismaticNovice's Avatar
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10 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2017  02:19 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add NumismaticNovice to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Thanks in advance for taking a look.



1795-Flowing-Hair-50c-Counterstamped...value?

1795-Flowing-Hair-50c-Counterstamped...value?

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MikeF's Avatar
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 Posted 07/12/2017  03:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, I'm not sure on the value. We do have a resident counterstamp specialist. He goes by the username Exoguy. Give the post 24 hours for him to chime in.
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John1's Avatar
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 Posted 07/12/2017  08:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and to CCF.
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moxking's Avatar
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 Posted 07/12/2017  10:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It all depends on the counter stamp. If the person or firm that used this RoFF is known, that MAY help the value. If it's known and historically significant that would also be desirable.

With a coin like this with a higher value it usually decreases that value. You would have LOTS of buyers for this coin without the counter stamp. Unless there is known historical connection with that CS it will reduce the number of potential buyers significantly.
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jeffrose's Avatar
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 Posted 07/12/2017  11:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeffrose to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
it appears that this half was plugged - look at dead center - more obvious on rev
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Coinfrog's Avatar
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 Posted 07/12/2017  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


to the CCF!
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NumismaticNovice's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2017  02:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticNovice to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks so much for the input. When I first saw the coin I thought why would someone do this?! And to a Flowing Hair no less!

Didn't know much about counter stamps at the time. What a shame. Oh well. I did manage to find a site listing of counter stamp names which could be handy for research. http://www.exonumia.com/art/cmd.htm
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NumismaticNovice's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2017  02:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticNovice to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks JeffRose, I overlooked that plug on the coin.
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Canada
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 Posted 07/13/2017  03:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Loruca to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I'm correct, what you are thinking isa plug is actually only a die alignment marker placed dead center in the coin, if you look up any other flowing hair coin, you will see similar dots in the middle of all of them. If you're talking about another plug, I'm just blind.
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ExoGuy's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2017  09:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the CCF, NumismaticNovice.

Brunk listed a ROFF counterstamp (# R-446) on a 1797 two real piece. He also listed a D. ROFF counterstamp. As these are not pictured in Brunk's book, the stamps can't be matched.

Lacking initials, a location, an occupation, etc. it's nearly impossible to positively attribute this apparent maverick. That said, on rare occasions, when similar pieces come to light, attribution is possible.

It looks to me like individual letter punches were used to apply the RoFF name with one lower case vowel. The neat alignment and central placement of the name suggests to me that the stamper did this with some specific purpose in mind. Possibly, he was a member of a masononic order, and this was a calling card of sorts? If this stamp matches that on the silver, two real piece, Roff may have been a silversmith or similar trade. I doubt that this piece was a merchant advertising issue, as were a great many counterstamped coins in the early 1800's.

I'm inclined to view this style of letters as likely being a pre-Civil War issue. A cursory search of early NY City directories resulted in a half dozen folks by that name in 1822 and 1847, respectively. The name is quite uncommon but not all that rare. So, important as the surname is, it really doesn't help narrow the field of possibilities.

In the case of this 1795 dollar, the counterstamp appears to hinder rather than help its' value. If it was say an important silversmith who stamped this lower grade coin, the value of it might be enhanced by a desirable hallmark.

Last year, a dealer offered to sell to me an attractive 1795 dollar in VF condition, bearing a counterstamped name with two preceding initials for $1,500. As I could attach no history to the name, I declined the offer. I thought, in time, he'd get more for it from a type coin guy.

Getting back to the "Roff" piece, I'll do some further checking and chime in, again, if I find any interesting info.
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2017  11:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't see any evidence of a plugged planchet from these images, nor do I see a post strike plug. The dot in the center of the reverse is known as a "center dot" and was created by the compass used to scribe layout lines on the die blank to guide the die sinker in the placement of the lettering.

All the letters were punched into these early dies by hand. To help with their placement a compass was used to lightly scratch a baseline at a set distance from the center of the die. The idea being to place the bottom of each letter on this baseline so they didnt "wander" up and down, The turning back and forth of the compass dug a small hole in the center of the die resulting in a raised dot on the coin.
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man2004's Avatar
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 Posted 07/13/2017  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add man2004 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is really amazing information Conder101.
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nfine's Avatar
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3468 Posts
 Posted 07/13/2017  12:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nfine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great description of the process, Conder101. I can almost see the dies being prepared to strike coins...
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NumismaticNovice's Avatar
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 Posted 07/14/2017  02:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticNovice to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Outstanding! Thank you for this information. I'm even more intrigued now. I did a bit of digging for info the past couple weeks but not extensively. Glad you mentioned masonic coins! I have several of them. Two are Scottish Rite Masonic coins/tokens and one is an 1894 Cent. I'll search the forum for that topic.
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