Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Specializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Feedback Requested Regarding Adjectival Grades For Uncirculated Coins

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 1,933Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
dd27's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2017  03:52 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dd27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I'm an occasional volunteer editor for Wikipedia, and I recently edited (rewrote) a section that discusses adjectival grades for uncirculated United States coins.

The article is: Sheldon Coin Grading Scale and the section I've worked on is 2.2 Uncirculated grades

If you are not familiar with how Wikipedia works, anyone can edit a page, although it's a good idea to 'do your homework' first (read the introductory tutorials and ask questions), as edits or additions to an article can be quickly be deleted if they do not meet certain (reasonable) standards.

I mention this fact for two reasons:

1) If you see errors, or if you know how to improve a sentence or paragraph or image--or the article as a whole, you can post it here and I can make the changes. But you can also just go ahead and make the changes yourself right there on Wikipedia. (See the Help page for a list of tutorials, guidelines, and ways to ask for help. Also feel free to ask me for assistance.)

2) Understand that this Wikipedia article (Sheldon Coin Grading Scale) was started in 2010 and has been collectively written by 20 people over the last seven years. (If you want to see all the edits [additions, modifications, etc.] for the article, click on View History in the upper right part of the page.)

I am looking for constructive critiques of the section I've worked on, 2.2 Uncirculated grades, and especially the subsection, 2.2.1 Adjectival Grades for Uncirculated Coins.

Thanks!

Mark

P.S. If you want to make a huge contribution to educating the public about coin collecting (or anything else), consider doing some volunteer editing on Wikipedia. There are "Wikipedias" for almost every language in the world, so I am not just referring to the English Wikipedia when I encourage you to consider this community service work. People often joke about Wikipedia, but it is the 5th most visited website (out of over 1 billion websites), and millions of people rely on it for information. Often the information is incomplete or even inaccurate, usually due to a lack of experts willing to help improve articles. You can change that.

P.P.S. I cannot talk about Wikipedia without remembering "Weird Al" Yankovic's video, White & Nerdy - at the 1:49 mark in particular.

Staff edit - video has been removed

(The part with Weird Al riding the Segway is a bit much... ) .... Just kidding. I appreciate y'all keeping this forum family-friendly, and I trust your judgement when it comes to videos that should or shouldn't be posted.
Edited by dd27
08/19/2017 04:21 am
Moderator
Learn More...
Spence's Avatar
United States
34407 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2017  07:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@dd27, yep I have edited wikipedia pages occasionally in the past. It's kinda fun to be part of something bigger. I'll check out the sheldon grading scale page later today.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Pillar of the Community
dd27's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2017  01:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dd27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the section I am most interested in receiving feedback about:


Quote:
Adjectival Grades for Uncirculated Coins
Coin dealers and individual coin collectors frequently use the terms Brilliant Uncirculated (often abbreviated as BU), Choice, Select, and Gem to describe Uncirculated (mint state) grades.[13] Some numismatists argue that an unscrupulous subset of coin dealers mislead customers by using such terms.[14] Although an official guide does not exist for adjectival grades, there appears to be at least a moderate degree of consensus[15][16][17][18][19][20] in the numismatic community for the following definitions:

Commonly Used (but unofficial) Adjectival Grades

Adjectival Grade | Equivalent Numerical Grade
Uncirculated | MS-60, MS-61, MS-62 [y]
Select or Choice Uncirculated | MS-63
Choice Uncirculated | MS-63, MS-64
Gem Uncirculated | MS-65, MS-66
Superb Gem Uncirculated | MS-67, MS-68, MS-69
Perfect Uncirculated | MS-70

However, bear in mind that simply because a coin dealer, for example, indicates that a coin "grades Gem Uncirculated" that does not necessarily mean that if the coin was submitted to one of the coin grading companies that the grading company would grade the coin as MS-65 or MS-66.

Endnotes
y. One might see the term Brilliant Uncirculated referring to coins in the MS-60 to MS-62 range, although PCGS defines Brilliant Uncirculated as a "generic term applied to any coin that has not been in circulation. It often is applied to coins with little 'brilliance' left, which properly should be described as simply Uncirculated.[16] And David Enders indicates that Brilliant Uncirculated should refer to a coin "... which has not been circulated and which still retains the majority of its original mint luster", and he adds, "sometimes 'Uncirculated' and 'Brilliant Uncirculated' are used interchangeably. However 'Brilliant' would not be applied to a coin which has significant defects impairing its eye appeal or which is lacking in luster."[18]

Footnotes
13. "Coin Grading Tutorial". coins.ha.com. Retrieved 2013-12-21.

14. Reynolds, Greg (2011-04-20). "The Advertising of 'Choice' or 'Gem' Uncertified Coins". CoinWeek. CoinWeek, LLC. Retrieved 2017-08-18. I am concerned that some advertisers in widely read 'print' coin publications are selling uncertified coins as 'Choice' (implied or thought to be MS-63 or higher), Very Choice (thought to grade MS-64), or Gem Uncirculated (thought to be MS-65 or higher) that do NOT come close to qualifying for such grades.

15. Headley, Susan (May 18, 2017). "What Is a "BU" Coin?". The Spruce. Retrieved August 18, 2017. Common adjective grading usually maps to the following Mint State grades: Uncirculated (MS-60, MS-61, MS-62): A technically uncirculated coin with abundant and noticeable defects such as bag marks and scrapes. It is usually accompanied by a poor strike and dull mint luster. Select Uncirculated (MS-63): An uncirculated coin with fewer deficiencies and better eye appeal been lower Mint State grades. Choice Uncirculated (MS-64): These coins have moderate distracting bag marks and/or very few, but noticeable, light scratches due to handling. Eye appeal will be good, but not outstanding. Gem Uncirculated (MS-65, MS-66): any uncirculated coin with only minor and light distracting marks or imperfections. Strike and eye appeal will be above average for the coin type.

16. "Coin collecting terms, slang, glossary". PCGS.com. Professional Coin Grading Service. Retrieved August 18, 2017. Choice Uncirculated - An Uncirculated coin grading MS-63 or MS-64. ... Gem Uncirculated - The adjectival equivalent of Mint State 65 or 66.

17. "BU (BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED) / MINT STATE". GoldBroker.com. FDR Capital LLC. Retrieved August 18, 2017. Uncirculated MS-60 ... Uncirculated MS-61 ... Uncirculated MS-62 ... Select Uncirculated MS-63 ... Choice Uncirculated MS-64 ... Gem Uncirculated MS-65 ... Gem Uncirculated MS-66 ... .

18. Enders, David. "Glossary". Dave's Collectible Coins. Retrieved August 18, 2017. Sheldon Scale - The modern numerical grading scale used for grading coins. The scale was created by American numismatist Dr. William H. Sheldon in 1949. This scale has become widely known and firmly accepted as the standard for coin grading in the US. The scale runs from 1 to 70 as follows: ... MS-60 - Uncirculated, ... MS-63 - Choice Uncirculated ... MS-65 - Gem Uncirculated ... MS-67 - Superb Gem Uncirculated

19. "What is an Adjectival Grade?". NGC.com. Numismatic Guarantee Corporation. Retrieved August 18, 2017. UNCIRCULATED is often paired with the additional qualifiers of BRILLIANT, CHOICE, or GEM. NGC considers BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED to be any coins that would grade from 60-70 on the Sheldon Grading Scale. CHOICE UNCIRCULATED is considered to be any coins that would grade from 63 to 70 and GEM UNCIRCULATED is used for coins that would grade from 65 to 70.

20. "Coin Grading Tutorial". Heritage Auctions. Retrieved August 19, 2017. Coins with no wear at all are alternately referred to as Uncirculated (Unc.), Brilliant Uncirculated (BU), and Mint State (MS). ... It is important to note that Uncirculated and similar terms refer only to the fact that the coin has no wear. The presence or absence of bagmarks, toning (discoloration), or a strong strike does not affect a coin's Uncirculated status, although such things can affect the numerical grade of the coin. ... Uncirculated (MS-60, 61, 62) ... Although most price guides will give a price for coins in MS-60 condition, in many cases this is a very unusual grade, with typical uncirculated pieces often grading somewhere in the MS-62 to MS-64 range depending on the series. Select Uncirculated (MS-63) ... Choice Uncirculated (MS-64) ... Choice Uncirculated is sometimes used to refer to a coin grading MS-63. Gem Uncirculated (MS-65, 66) ... Superb Gem Uncirculated (MS-67, 68, 69) ... Perfect Uncirculated (MS-70): An utterly flawless coin.
Edited by dd27
08/20/2017 01:43 am
Rest in Peace
Crazyb0's Avatar
10197 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2017  02:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mark, glad you emphasized that BU is a completely arbitrary term, although it might be expressed even more forcefully with regard to those with slight experience with coin grading who frightfully use the term on venues as ebay! My thoughts, and even when I use the term "BU" are that it is most definitely a "description" of a nice uncirculated coin, not "implying" any grade whatsoever. It is sad, but I wonder just how many know what an adjective is, much less its use.
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2017  02:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me 'MS' means Mint State, that is, pristine as coin leaves the dies, before ejection out of the press,
not 'Uncirculated' with varying degrees of impairment.

Uncirculated should be exactly what it says, which allows for varying degrees of impairment for coins that have never seen circulation, but nevertheless have a small or a large degree of impairment.

Unfortunately the varying degrees of impairment are usually seen with personal subjectivity, not objectivity.
That is why I prefer Sheldon grading for perfectly UNworn coins, that nevertheless have a small or large amount of nicks and scratches on them.

I think that Sheldon grading is too generous for coins that display a small or a large degree of WEAR on them.
Nevertheless, when asked to grade a coin on this Forum, I always follow Sheldon grading for American coins, because that is what the American readership in the CCF prefers, and most commonly understands.

For uncirculated and lower condition NON American coins, I prefer the British grading system because it is far more severe, especially when it comes to ancient and hammered coins.
Sheldon grading makes little sense when grading ancient coins, because far more factors that directly affect grading have to be considered.

With slab TPGrading, for ancient and hammered coins, slabbing only makes sense when it helps with authentication and protection.
Pillar of the Community
dd27's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2017  03:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dd27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
... glad you emphasized that BU is a completely arbitrary term, although it might be expressed even more forcefully ...


Ah, excellent point. I will be thinking about how to best do that. I have it in an endnote, but it would be best to have it in the main text too.

Thanks!

Mark
Pillar of the Community
dd27's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2017  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dd27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I prefer the British grading system...


Yes, I think there is a lot to be said for the European grading systems in general. If we could vote on the matter, I would vote to change what we use in the USA.

But I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon!

~ Mark
Rest in Peace
Crazyb0's Avatar
10197 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2017  7:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sel_69l, in total agreement with your thoughts on "uncirculated" vs "mint state. Here in the states, I seem to be in a minority that say uncirculated means "untouched by human intervention". Once a coin has left Mint property to be distributed by the Fed, whether in rolled or bag form, it is "uncirculated" at that time. The first to observe that coin is the ONLY one seeing a genuine uncirculated coin. This may be a "customer" or a contracted armored carrier, who will roll these coins (if bagged) or pass on the OBW (\original bank wrap) which is in turn passed on to a customer. Once a coin has passed through either of these hand's, bingo!...circulated coin. Regardless if this coin "looks" lustrous, free of blemish, mint state in other words, this baby has entered the realm of coin service, circulation. Meaning, highest possible Seldom grade would be AU59, period! True, I see coins CRHing, that have virtually no blemish, tick mark and retain "cartwheel" luster quite often, if and when I save them, they are noted as AU, even tho the similar coin taken from a purchased OBW(?) roll looks the same and would grade an MS63+. Go figure.

Forum Folks are always wanting grades for their coins. First I question the source, most often coin has been found in a distributor (bank or contractor) rolled batch. I can count on my hand just how many agree with me, those who don't, I do not have enough fingers AND toes to count. I consider it dishonest if the source is known, but grade the coin high mint state anyway. I realize it is a fine line, but its my line, I stick to it.
Pillar of the Community
dd27's Avatar
United States
666 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2017  01:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dd27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Quote:
... glad you emphasized that BU is a completely arbitrary term, although it might be expressed even more forcefully ...

Ah, excellent point. I will be thinking about how to best do that. I have it in an endnote, but it would be best to have it in the main text too.


Here is the most recent version:


Quote:
Coin dealers and individual coin collectors often use adjectives--with or without an accompanying Sheldon numerical code--to describe an uncirculated coin's grade. The term Brilliant Uncirculated (often abbreviated as BU) is probably the most common--and the most ambiguous--of such adjectives.[13][14] While Brilliant Uncirculated (BU) ought to refer to an uncirculated coin that retains its original mint luster, some equate BU with Uncirculated, i.e., they might refer to an MS-60 coin with little or no effulgence as Brilliant Uncirculated.

References
13. "How United States coins are Graded". http://www.PCGS.com. Collectors Universe, Inc. June 12, 1995. Retrieved August 22, 2017. "... the designation BU (Brilliant Uncirculated) is frequently used to describe uncirculated coins. Because of the absence of a numerical grade, this term is ambiguous at best. Often, coins that are offered as BU may in reality be AU (About Uncirculated) by strict definition."

14. Enders, David. "Glossary". DavesCollectibleCoins.com. Retrieved August 21, 2017. "Brilliant Uncirculated - Refers to a coin which has not been circulated and which still retains the majority of its original mint luster. Sometimes 'Uncirculated' and 'Brilliant Uncirculated' are used interchangeably. However 'Brilliant' [should] not be applied to a coin which has significant defects impairing its eye appeal or which is lacking in luster."


And I retained the endnote, changing it a bit to fit better with the above changes:


Quote:
Sometimes coin sellers apply the term Brilliant Uncirculated coins in the MS-60 to MS-62 range, which may or may not be accurate depending on how one defines Brilliant Uncirculated (as noted earlier). For example, PCGS defines Brilliant Uncirculated as a "generic term applied to any coin that has not been in circulation. It often is applied to coins with little 'brilliance' left, which properly should be described as simply Uncirculated.[17] And Susan Headley notes that a "... BU coin ... generally falls into the lowest MS grades [MS-60, MS-61, and MS-63] on the Sheldon scale.[16]


Thanks for the feedback! Please feel free to offer me more suggestions, or make changes yourself on Wikipedia. If you search for "Sheldon coin grading scale" on Google, the Wikipedia article is the first result.

~ Mark
Edited by dd27
08/22/2017 01:34 am
Moderator
Learn More...
SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2017  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think your work meets any reasonable standard for numismatic scholarship, and I would reference it as currently written in the belief I was linking accurate information. The openness you're applying to the process makes me confident I'd feel the same about any future revisions.
Moderator
Learn More...
Spence's Avatar
United States
34407 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2017  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@dd27, I just made one minor edit as I felt most readers wouldn't know the word "efflugence" (feel free to undo my edit if you disagree). otherwise, this looks fine. nice work!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Bedrock of the Community
paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2017  6:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it is well-written and very informative.

I struggle with the British system at times -- for instance, eyeball grading a coin as aVF, VF, or gVF is slightly more difficult for me than VF25, VF30, and VF35.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
  Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 1,933Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.47 seconds to rattle this change. Forums