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Aargh! Need Me Some Pirate Help Matey!

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Jays-Dad's Avatar
United States
790 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2008  5:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Jays-Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...WN:IT&ih=018

I won this auction and got the coins. I thought that identification was going to be a breeze, but I haven't identified any of them yet.
Top left: copper, III counterstamp
Top middle: copper, 1681, lion in heraldry, crown
Top right: copper, mess (what is this light brown stuff covering it?)
Bottom left: copper, Standing lion with no shield,
Bottom center: copper, VI counterstamp, 64 counterstamp over Standing lion in shield (similar to heraldry in top center)
Bottom right: Morocco? Cast Bronze? Might have the attachment points from casting (I took high school shop once, otherwise I'm not a metals expert)

Oh do I need some hints on these! Sap where are you! Anyone else! Help!
Edited by Jays-Dad
05/02/2008 08:48 am
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Archraz's Avatar
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3499 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2008  6:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ah very nice. What you have here are cob maravedis (at least the middle two and the two on the left), which are all presumably 17th century. I believe that 34 maravedis = 1R (but I maybe wrong on this since I don't have access to my notes at the moment). These were rather poorly made and often counter struck in order to revalue them. It is very hard to tell where they were minted due to the quality, but typically cobs were stuck in the American colonies.
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Archraz's Avatar
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3499 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2008  6:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In addition, the top middle one looks very similar to one I have from Spanish colonial Florida.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16826 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2008  11:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aye, Cap'n, I be summoned...

Archraz is basically correct. Most of these are from Spain, that is, European Spain, and not Spanish colonial (the Spanish Americas don't appear to have issued any coppers of their own). Perfectly fitting coins for a pirate to own. Well, a poor one, anyway - they're not as alluring as a silver piece-of-eight or gold doubloon, but not as pricy either.

Numbering top left to bottom right:

#1: Can't really make out much there, except to assume it's like #2, only countermarked. I can read the "III" but can't tell if it's really "III" or part of "VIII" or "IIII". No idea who might've countermarked it.

#2: the most promising one there, as far as identifiability is concerned. It's clearly a Spanish cob-style copper. The date appears to be "168x", and only the 2 maravedis are reported as being struck cob-style in that decade; here's an example on CoinArchives.

#3: Presumably something similar to the first two, though this one seems to have trace of a cross dividing the Spanish castle-and-lion quarters, as appears on gold and silver coins like the silver 1 real of the early 1600's... only this one is clearly copper. The dirty-looking stuff is probably just that - dirt, and/or corrosion, mixed together. It could of course, be a contemporary forgery of a silver coin.

#4: Another nice clear one, and of a distinctly different type to the rest. This one is from the milled coinage of the early 1600's, and is probably a 4 maravedis which was once considerably larger than it is now. It should be nice and round! Below the lion you can read "...IARV...", remnant of "HISPANIARVM REX". On the other side, we've got remnant of the castle, with legible text "...PVS...", remnant of "PHILIPPVS III D.G.".

#5: This one looks like a cob-style 4-maravedis from the early 1600's, similar to #2 only larger, counterstamped to revalue it to 6 or 8 maravedis. I can't tell if the countermark is an off-centre "VI" or a poorly struck "VIII". I suspect the latter. This example on CoinArchives shows a 4-maravedis with design similar to #4, counterstamped with a "VI in circle" punch very similar to the one that struck yours. The notes on that coin indicate the punch was applied in the early 1640's. Krause doesn't mention the couterstampings at all under Spain; they may even be colonial.

#6: the Seal of Solomon and the casting sprues clearly indicate this is a Moroccan cast copper of the 1700's or 1800's, and doesn't really belong here at all. These pieces were supposed to be cast, rather than struck; the sprues are normal. Barbary pirates may have used these, Caribbean pirates would probably not have. I don't know what's happened to the other side of it, but I can't see anything resembling a date.

I'm no expert in this time period and frankly don't trust Krause to not omit critical information on the various types issued at different times. When you get the coins in hand, take some better pics if you can, and include dimensions, to confirm my guesses about the denominations.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Jays-Dad's Avatar
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 Posted 05/04/2008  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jays-Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, I did not notice that the Spanish colonials were never made in copper. That narrows the search considerably. However, my 1601-1700 Krause does not show very many pics for the copper Maravedis. Where could I find someplace with pictures? Who would have a reference specific to these coins? Swamperbob? Gotta check the reference books he has listed on that sticky thread.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2008  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I pulled out my Cayon and found illustrations of 18 possible types for the top center coin. What I do know is that based on the design it is a 2 Maravedis from the reign of Carlos II. I have not been able to determine either the mint or exact date from the pictures. They were issued from 1680 to 1707 - there are 45 listed varieties with a total of 24 illustrations. But they were made only in the years 1680 to 1686 during the 1680s.

Here is a mint by mint list:

1680 - 10 mints Burgos, Coruna, Cuenca, Granada, Trujillo, Madrid (MD), Segovia, Linares (LS), Toledo and
Valladolid (VDL) and (VLLL)
1681 - 6 mints Burgos, Coruna, Granada, Toledo, Trujillo and Valladolid (VL)
1682 - 1 mint Toledo
1683 - 3 mints Madrid, Toledo and Valladolid (VD)
1684 - 1 mint Coruna
1685 - 5 mints Coruna, Granada, Madris, Toledo, Valladolid (VDL)
1686 - 3 mints Granada, Trujillo (TRo) and Valladolid (VDL)

They are all considered to be common with values listed between 2,000 and 7,000 Pesetas (basis 1998) with a listed equivalence of 150 Pesetas per Dollar US. That equates to roughly $10 to $50 in terms of today's dollar.

I believe Sap was right on the top left coin it is a counterstamped 2 Maravedis, but there are no Kings after Carlos II that re-issued the 2M after redenominating the issue. It is likely an earlier issue. Philip IV 1621 to 1645 extensively countermarked earlier copper coins. There are 31 varieties of 2M that were countermarked with IIII marks of various types. Usually the IIII is surmounted with a crown and many coins have multiple countermarks. They are all rather common with listed values of $5 to $20.

The third coin upper right top - is beyond me. Not enough detail to tell. There are some affinities to pictures of 6 Maravedis (Resellados) of Philip IV. There are some copper coins using a cross motif but Sap's idea of a counterfeit of a silver cob may be correct. I simply can't see enough of the design.

In the case of the bottom left coin - hats off to Sap once again. That is most likely a 4 Maravedis from the reign of Philip III or Philip II - both use the same design with the lion in a circle of dots and a castle on the other side. There should be numbers and letters on both sides of the castle - which I can't see. I guess Sap's eyes are far better than mine because I just can't see the details he can. There are 32 varieties listed for Philip II and 31 for Philip III. The value range is wider in this case from $5 to $100 - so a precise attribution is essential.

The coin at bottom center began life as a 4 Maravedis, but it was revalued to 6 Maravedis by Philip IIII. There are VI, VIII and XII counterstamps listed for Philip IIII and there are NUMEROUS examples of each stamp but the original size limits the possibilities involved. But each stamp has a date on the opposite side with the mint mark underneath. I think I see 1641? but no trace of a mint mark (the under design precluded transfer). The combination of a VI stamp, 1641 and the 4 M size corresponds to the 6 over 4 re-evaluation which was done 1636 to 1642. They were done at 10 mints during 1641. All are common with values of $5 to $10. Attribution of date and mint both would command a premium and the ID of the host might add more. However, from a picture that is as far as I can go.

The bottom right coin is a Moroccan cast copper just as Sap indicates. It is truly out of place in this group.

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yoyo's Avatar
Australia
12 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2008  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yoyo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Swamperbob! You're a veritable goldmine of information. :-)

You wrote: "I pulled out my Cayon ..." What reference is that, and what does it cover - just Spain, or its colonies as well? Also, what other references are useful for Spain + colonies?

Thanks!
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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2008  11:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yoyo - The reference is a Spanish language book that is essential for earlier Spanish coins. It is 1200 pages and starts with later Roman provincial issues of 411 AD and runs through 1998. All issues of Spain are covered including many that do not appear in Krause. It also covers all Spanish colonies and the Pretender issues. It does not cover Republics that formed from the Colonies. For copper minors it is the only reference that has adequate illustration of types. The text descriptions are minimal and they are written in Spanish but they are very helpful.

Since it covers so much territory it is not as complete as books like Calbetto with regards to specific series, but as a general reference it is indispensable.

The full title is:

"Las Monedas Espanolas, Del tremis al euro, Del 411 a nuestros dias." by Adolfo, Clemente and Juan Cayon. The second edition was printed in Madrid in 1998.

The references are:

I.S.B.N.: 84-920980-3-1

Printer: S.A. Fareso
Paseo de Direccion, 5
28039 Madrid

Distributor: S.L. Jano Madrid - Fax. (34) 91523 35 85
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