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Guatemala 8 Reales--Genuine?

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KurtS's Avatar
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5318 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2008  11:50 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
At a recent show, I bumped into a friend I hadn't seen for years. Turns out, he's a collector of Spanish colonial coins of C.America. He happens to have a few that he questions their authenticity. What are your opinions of this coin? Thanks!

Guatemala-8-Reales--Genuine?

Guatemala-8-Reales--Genuine?
Edited by KurtS
04/22/2008 12:08 am
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Banjax's Avatar
Ireland
112 Posts
 Posted 04/22/2008  08:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Banjax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd say its genuine KurtS, people who produce forgeries for coins of that age, would normally produce them at a slightly better grade.
Now of course, it also depends on how old this coin is, if it is a forgerie, and whether it accidently entered circulation, which can happen.
but my bet is that its genuine. :)
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 04/22/2008  08:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting coin, I guess the date is 1755. Don't really know enough about this type to say if it's real or not. Krause lists it as KM#18 1755G small j, weight should be @27.0674 grams.
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KurtS's Avatar
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 Posted 04/23/2008  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for your insights!
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hunter20ga's Avatar
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1173 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2008  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hunter20ga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looking at this and the 4 reales you posted, I don't like the look of the shields (coats of arms) on either coin. This one, in particular, seems crude. Look at how the castle in the lower right of the shield falls outside the edge. Is that the way it should look? Seems pretty odd...seems crude; but I have no idea of the quality of the Guatemalan minting techniques of the day. Again...comparing the weight and diameter of this coin to the standard should help determine authenticity.
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KurtS's Avatar
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 Posted 04/23/2008  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hunter,
You have a good point about that shield! I went over to Heritage, and compared to other 4 and 8 Reales from the period, and I don't see any castles overhanging the shield. It's almost like somebody did not plan well. Good call!
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jfransch's Avatar
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1801 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2008  12:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
actually the castle can overhang in the lower right quadrant on an original 1755, 1756, and 1757 8 real from Guatemala, I've lots of examples of those three dates with that castle placement. I believe the "Gilboy" reference book will show that feature if there are photos of those dates. As for color, I've seen better and worse on these coins. This one looks to me (from the photo, might look different in hand) like a burial find that someone tried to clean up. The best course of action is to check weight. Legal weight for a Guatemala 8 reale is 27.0642 grams.
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KurtS's Avatar
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 Posted 05/03/2008  12:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is hardly my area of expertise, and it sounds like my friend should research this one further because it may be genuine. Everyone has been very helpful--thanks!
Btw, isn't Swamperbob knowledgeable on these coins? I'd really like hearing his opinion.
Edited by KurtS
05/04/2008 6:28 pm
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Bryan1315's Avatar
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14454 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2008  3:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
email swamperbob and he will come in here and give you a definitive answer on if its real or not
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 05/04/2008  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
KurtS - There is some good news and some bad news. First the bad news. The coin is a counterfeit of that I have essentially no doubt whatsoever. The signs are:
1. The crudely engraved features - like the world globes, the crowns and the features of the coat of arms. These should be made with elemental punches in 1755. Look specifically at the lower arc on the Crown above the Dos Mundos. Also the features ON the globes themselves are incorrect and compare the Rosettes - they are distinctively different and should NOT BE.
2. The lettering is hand engraved and does not match the correct font precisely. Compare for example the A's in VTRAQUE and HISPAN. If that is not enough or if you think the letters should be on ONE die - check the E's on the shield side.
3. On the Shield side look at the edge near the rim at IND REX. The rough surfaces which link the letters to the rim are typical of transfer dies.
4. I am suspicious about the application of the edge design. There appear to be surface distrotions as if it was applied POST strike. That would tend to bother me because Many mints had converted to pre-edged planchets by 1755.

Now for the good news, Counterfeits are often very valuable. It depends on when they were made and by whom. To determine actual value as a counterfeit it would be helpful to know the weight (to the 1/10th gram) and the density if possible.

So the Bad news is actually tempered by the fact that you may possibly have an older forgery.


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KurtS's Avatar
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5318 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2008  9:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Swamperbob for sharing your knowledge! I will pass this on to my friend, and if he weighs the coin I will post the results here. The possibility of an older counterfeit is very intriguing.

Update on weight: The 8 reales came to 26.50 grams.
Edited by KurtS
05/06/2008 12:41 pm
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 05/07/2008  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
KurtS - A weight of 26.5 grams is right on the edge between what I would suspect is a modern forgery and a possible contemporary. The earlier forgeries are usually light weight. They made them to look worn hoping that the average person would attribute a weight loss to wear. The range for the average contemporary forgery is roughly 23 grams to 26 grams. Some do go as high as 26.5 grams but not too many. The modern numismatic types range from 26.4 to 27.3 grams with 26.9 being average. I am excluding from consideration white metal junk copies (Tourist Class) that run 19.5 grams to 23 grams.

The next step is definitely density. An early forgery will not be anywhere near 10 because they made their profit by using base metals - a numismatic forgery will likely be silver and will run 10.2 to 10.6. I have seen several in Sterling silver and a few in 0.999 fine silver made from machined down silver rounds. For that reason SGs over 10.3 do occur and are absolutely modern.
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