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 Replies: 12 / Views: 2,298 |
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Valued Member
United States
82 Posts |
Hello, I'm looking for a little help on ID'ing this counter stamp... Measures 24mm and weighs 2.94 grams.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
12477 Posts |
Do you mean identifying the counterstamps or identifying what coin it used to be?
In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
1358 Posts |
Not sure what the original coin used to be: the surface has been professionally destroyed so it's impossible to say.
For the counter stamp: if it actually means anything at all, then the suggestion of Numismat seems like a very good one to me. It doesn't get more Lippe than that.
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Valued Member
 United States
82 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
Awesome, I learned something here as well. I'm glad you have something rather scarce :)
The host coin is likely a local coin of the realm. The dentils are certainly of the style found on 17th-18th century German coppers.
Edited by Numismat
09/29/2017 12:32 am
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Pillar of the Community
Norway
1358 Posts |
Just for your information and before feeling rich... MA Shops is a shop in Germany and this is a German coin. Usually, coins get more expensive the closer they get to home. MA Shops and Germany in general is known as an expensive numismatic market. I do hope the very best for you in case you want to sell it, but don't get too high expectations. The coin may sell for a lot less in the USA.  EDIT I just re-read the description in MA and they actually explicitly mention the 3 variant as the brother of the one with the 2. Both are very rare. The text inside the flower is apparently LR which stands for Lippische Regierung, or Government of Lippe. Edited by UltraRant
09/29/2017 08:49 am
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Valued Member
United States
82 Posts |
UltraRant, that's great information, but for $5 bucks I couldn't turn it down. Any ideas on the two references?
Slg. Weweler 765
Slg. Grönegreß 381
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
"but for $5 bucks"
!!! Absolutely! Smart pickup... Clueless local shop?
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Valued Member
United States
82 Posts |
Guys,
I got a reply on an email yesterday... Apparently Slg is the abbreviation for Sammlung which translates to collection. (I learned something today) I was also told that Slg. Grönegreß 381 was sold in 1990 by Künker Auctions 13, 14 and 16.
Also, Slg. Weweller 765 was Paul Weweller that was sold by Leu Numismatik in Oct 1995. I have another email out to a friend that might be able to find this catalog. I'll keep you posted...
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Indeed, in the absence of extensive reference material, auction sale catalogues are often used to identify particular pieces and also to establish provenance. Some of the famous German Sammlungen sold off included thousands of pieces from different specialties such as medals, coins, etc. and are still used to this day to identify those items even though more modern books have come out since then, e.g. Merseburger & Krug are still used for medals.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Valued Member
United States
82 Posts |
I have an update on the counterstamp... I had a friend email me a copy of the Weweller auction page for lot#765 as identified earlier. I was able to use the Bing Translator and came up with the following description. After viewing the auction lot, I believe this is the exact coin listed in the that auction!  One-sided copper Mark O. J. (18th/19th century) with Einpunzierter value 3 and three identical cancellations, representing a five-petaled rose blossom with stamens, in the centre of which is a monogram of B (or R?) and L. As a Schrötling, an older, coarsely smooth convict was used prior to reuse, of whose character only a small portion of the outer notch circle is recognizable. 24.2 mm. 2.94 g. Grote/Hölz. -. Weing. ln the night. -. Weing. KM-. Weing. Km Subsequent. -. Neumann-. Very rare. Very nice. · 100.- A type of identical one-sided copper mark with the Einpunzierten value number 2 and the same, only twice hammered rose stamp met us in auction 13 of the company Fr. R. Kunker, Osnabrück, from 13-15.3.1989, No. 381. The number of rose stamps seems to be directly related to the value of the Einpunzierten number. This specimen has been assigned to the afore mentioned auction catalogue Tetentativ of the Lippe city of Blomberg. Weweler, on the other hand, believed the monogram to be read as a ligature from L and R and interpreted it as an abbreviation for "Lippe government" or "Lippe Rentkammer". Although the shape of the five-petal rose depicts a Lippe origin of these copper marks and their Entstehnung in the 18th or 19th century, a more precise approach of these pieces is, however, without the submission of supporting Archival Zeugnissse purely speculative. Here's a close up of the 2 pieces side-by-side...  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Great detective work so far.
The fact it appears to be identical coin is troubling. The coin was punched on an erased blank 4 times so it is UNIQUE. Two identical copies can not exist.
Couple that with the fact that this is a VERY RARE coin and you have a bit of a dilemma.
I see only three ways this coin could have gotten to a dealer who had no clue and sold it for $5.
First the original owner died and his heirs were defrauded.
Second the coin is a very well made forgery of a unique coin.
Third at some time the coin was stolen and some collector is out a bunch of money.
I for one would want to know which occurred.
People who have had coins stolen from them - understand what it feels like to be on the flip side of this deal. I see it as an ethical obligation for any collector placed in this position to determine what happened by following the pedigree from the auction onward.
I doubt you will loose money doing this. The reward for the return of the coin should be many times greater than what you paid for it. Even a forgery of such a rarity would sell for 3-4 times what you paid.
I suggest doing the right thing and making sure it was not stolen.
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Replies: 12 / Views: 2,298 |
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Posted 09/27/2017 11:46 pm
