Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors 300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Specializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

1857 Bank Of Canada 1/2 Cent For Grade And Doug.

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 3,076Next Topic  
Valued Member
Muskokarocks's Avatar
Canada
63 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2018  12:02 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Muskokarocks to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***

Heres another one for everyones enjoyment. I'm think it would make 60. What do you think. Doug your awsome. When is your book coming out? Thanks Matt
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum...43_image.jpg
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum...10_image.jpg

Cant figure out how to repost an old image. Clipboard not working for me.
Bedrock of the Community
Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2018  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Better than 60 I'd guess, perhaps 63/64. nice example.
Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2018  7:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

AU 58.
Rub is to the Pineapple of the right Cornucopia.
The Dots atop the Anchor Shaft merge together.
The Pectoral muscles merge with the Breast Strap (no demarkation).

The token appears to be cleaned; the luster seems odd, especially about UPPER, the Heads of the Man and Horse; and about the Dragon.
Evidence of luster is often found within the design elements of the Legend. But concerning UPPER, the entire field betwixt the letters of the Legend shew luster and there is a clear separation betwixt the brightness of the luster and the toning of the token. Likewise with the other issues mentioned.

I will endeavor to ascertain the Courteau variety later.

doug
Pillar of the Community
Wade's Avatar
Canada
2781 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2018  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doug beat me to it as I was typing,

Au58 from me as well. Downgraded to details/cleaned

A little too much wear on the crown and right pineapple to make MS.

As Doug noted the bright copper showing through has likely be unearthed after a good cleaning (heavy spot of verdigris remains in the A in cAnada and some grime around the right pineapple, I suspect if this was removed you would see the same "luster" as seen in the surrounding fields).

1857 is by far the easiest, and most affordable, of the dragon slayers to be found in mint state.

Pillar of the Community
Wade's Avatar
Canada
2781 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2018  8:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
for comparison, although of different years,

here is an MS 63 (1850 - not mine)

and an MS65 (1854 - proudly mine)

1857-Bank-Of-Canada-1/2-Cent-For-Grade-And-Doug.

1857-Bank-Of-Canada-1/2-Cent-For-Grade-And-Doug.


Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2018  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wade

Beautiful tokens; the 1854 is eye candy; as good as it get - the closer you look, the more beauty you see.

Have I previously attributed these?

If not, I will do it for you, but I do not need the practice to do it again.

doug
Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2018  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

On another note...

When posting photos to grade or attribute, kindly insert both photos (obverse and reverse) into the same attachment.
This saves having me open the attachment and then close the attachment to look at the other attachment. Sometime one has to go back
and forth several times betwixt the views and then remember what he wants to mention in the post for you have to close the attachments in order to respond. Perhaps some adroit computer users have a better way...and I am doing it all wrong.

doug
Pillar of the Community
Wade's Avatar
Canada
2781 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2018  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doug,

yes you have seen and commented on my '54

I believe the words you used were "perhaps the best you've seen"

Not sure I could much earn higher praise than that
Pillar of the Community
United States
840 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2018  12:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wade:

Below is a cut-and-paste of my work-up of your MS-63 1850.

I believe this is Courteau variety 32, having a rarity factor of 5 on a scale of 1-10 (with 1 being common).

Within this grouping (Courteau's group #2, varieties 27-45 inclusive), Courteau only identified variety 32 as having a die-crack to the numeral 5. Upon this characteristic diagnostic alone, most collectors search no further. But upon further study and comparison I have determined there are actually 2 different orientations of the die-crack to the 5, thus indicating two different, howbeit two different dies. For the sake of present pigeon-holing I call the second variety 32-1. I wonder how many have been collectively identified as variety 32.

Like I said, from the photos I believe this to be variety 32. I have pasted the work-up of variety 32-1 for your comparison and final determination. Absent the token in hand and absent better magnification it may prove to be variety 32-1. I do not have enough date to be positive.


32 R-5

Obverse Characteristics:
The Man's right Foot is perfect.
The left Wing of the Dragon is perfect.
Two horizontal lines are below the left Wing of the Dragon.
The left Bridle Rein shews well.
A round Knob is to the Dagger Hilt.

The lower left-side of the Upright of the numeral 1 is poorly executed.

As with variety 1, the relief of the left-side of the upright of the numeral 1 is very poorly executed. A slight inward tapering of the relief above the Stand of the numeral is detectible.
Note - This characteristic diagnostic was not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.

The Serif of the Upright of the K in BANK is weakly struck.
The bottom of the you in UPPER is weakly struck.
The right-side of the Serif of the right Upright of the you in UPPER is weakly struck.
The Serif of the 1st P in UPPER is weakly struck.
The Serif of the 2nd P in UPPER is weakly struck.
The Serif of the E in UPPER is weakly struck.
The Stand of the R in UPPER is weakly struck.
The Serif of the R in UPPER is weakly struck.
The Stand of the right Leg of the 1st A in CANADA is weakly struck.
The Serif of the left Upright of the N in CANADA is weakly struck.
The left-side of the Stand of the right Leg of the 2nd A in CANADA is weakly struck.
The Serif of the D in CANADA is weakly struck.
The Stand of the right Leg of the 3rd A in CANADA is weakly struck.

Two long lines of equal length are below the Man's right Arm.
The Belly of the Horse is not double-cut.

From broken dies.
A Die-Crack is to the left of the numeral 5.
This straight vertical Die-Crack is from the base of and runs along the right-side of the Denticle betwixt the 8 and the 5, running along the right-side of the same Denticle and extending to the ground, running very close to and parallel with the left-side of the 5.
Note - This Die-Crack is easily confused with variety 32-1, and diligent scrutiny must be exercised to properly differentiate betwixt the two.
The Die-Crack on variety 32 runs along the right-side of the Denticle, whereas the same Die-Crack on variety 32-1 is from the right corner of the same Denticle. The Die-Crack on variety 32 runs very close to the same 5, whereas the same Die-Crack on variety 32-1 runs slightly more distant from the same 5. The Die-Crack on variety 32 extends to the base of the ground; the Die-Crack of variety 32-1 passes through the vertical of the same 5.

A Die-Crack is through BANK.
This Die-Crack is from field betwixt the left Rosette and the Denticles, extending to the upper Serif of the B in BANK, exiting the apogee of the upper curve of the same letter, extending through the upper section of the A in the same word, and continuing through the Serifs of the N and K in the same word.
Note - Diligent scrutiny must be exercised to properly differentiate betwixt this Die-Crack and that of variety 32-1. They are very similar, but variety 32 exits the apogee of the right-side of the upper curve of the B, whereas variety 32-1 originates from the lower section of the same curve. Variety 32 enters the Leg of the A higher than does variety 32-1.
1. Variety 32-1 exits the Leg of the same A higher than does variety 32.
Note - This Die-Crack was not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.

A Die-Crack is to the 2nd P in CANADA.
This Die-Crack is from the left corner of the Denticle above the centre of the 2nd P in UPPER, exiting to the mid-section of the top of the same letter, exiting the left-end of the left Serif of the base of the same letter, and extending to the 1st Mantle Fold.

A Die-Crack is to the 1st A in CANADA.
This Die-Crack is from betwixt the Denticles above the right Leg of the 1st A in CANADA, extending to the upper section of the same Leg, and exiting the same Leg.
Note - This Die-Crack was not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.


Reverse Characteristics: The same as variety 31, but from the perfect die.

The St. Andrew's Cross frame below the E in TOKEN is broken in the middle.
The end of the outline of the Union Jack is forked.
The Anchor Ring is perfect.
The Battle-Axe Head has a hole
The lower ornamental Ball is present.

The Stand of the T in TOKEN is weakly struck.
The Stand of the N in TOKEN is half struck to the left, and fully struck to the right.

The right-side of the Stand of the Upright of the K in BANK is weakly struck.
The right-side of the Stand of the Leg of the K in BANK is weakly struck.
The right-side of the Stand of the Leg of the K in TOKEN is weakly struck.
The right-side of the Serif of the right Arm of the Y in PENNY is weakly struck.

The right inner ornamental ball is connected to the Cornucopias.

A small Speck is to the left of the T in TOKEN.
This Speck is on-line slightly below lower vertical of the Serif of the left Arm of the T in TOKEN, and on-line slightly to the right of the upper inner right-side Crown Jewel.
Note - This Speck is not readily discernable on lower grade specimens.

Note - Doctor Courteau references the reverse of variety 32 as the same as variety 31, which is the same as variety 30. The distinction betwixt the reverses of
varieties 30 and 31 is that variety 31 has a Speck and different Die-Cracks. Doctor Courteau references variety 32 as that of variety 31, not variety 30. Varieties 32 and 31 have a similar Speck, but variety 32 has no Die-Crack. Absent any qualifying exemption, the enigma is the implication that variety 32 should also have the same Die-Crack as variety 31. At present, the author is not privy to broken reverse specimens of variety 32.

From perfect dies.
Thus:
32 A Die-Crack is to the left of the 5.
32A Die-Crack as above, plus a Die-Crack connects BANK (obverse).
Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the 1st A in CANADA.
32B Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the 2nd P in UPPER.

Note - The last three Die-Cracks were not mentioned by Doctor Courteau.
This is the Die-Crack progression.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


32-1. R-? NEW VARIETY

Note - Solely due to the Die-Crack to the numeral 5, the author opted to list the new Variety as 32-1. Of group II contenders, only varieties 32 and 32-1 have a Die-Crack to the numeral 5.

Obverse Characteristics: Similar to varieties 32 and 32-2, but having a Die-Crack and no discernable Die-Clash.

The Man's right Foot is perfect.
The left Wing of the Dragon is perfect.
Two horizontal lines are below the left Wing of the Dragon.
The left Bridle Rein shews well.
A round Knob is to the Dagger Hilt.

The K in BANK is defective.
The Serif of the Upright of the K is missing.
The right-side of the Serif of the Arm of the K is missing.
The right-side of the Stand of the Leg of the K is missing.

The you in UPPER is defective.
The bottom of the you is weakly struck, as is variety 32.
The right-side of the Serif of the right Upright of the you is missing.

The 1st P in UPPER is defective.
The Stand of the P is missing.
The Serif of the P is missing.

The Stand of the 2nd P in UPPER is weakly struck,
The R in UPPER is defective.
The left-side of the Stand of the R in UPPER is weakly struck,

The Serif of the R in UPPER is missing.

The left-side of the Stand of the right Leg of the 2nd A in CANADA is weakly struck.

The Serif of the D in CANADA is weakly struck.

A forked line is below the Man's right Arm. The upper branch is longer and thinner.
The Belly of the Horse is not double-cut.

From broken dies.
A Die-Crack is to the left of the 5.
This vertical Die-Crack is from the right-section of the Denticle betwixt the 8 and the 5, running close to and parallel with the left-side of the 5. At the mid- section of the vertical of the same numeral, the Die-Crack bends abruptly 90°, exiting the underside of the slope of the top of the same numeral, and exiting
to the left Shoulder of the Zero in the same Date.
Note - This Die-Crack is easily confused with variety 32, and diligent scrutiny must be exercised to properly differentiate betwixt the two. The Die-Crack on variety 32 runs along the right-side of the Denticle, whereas the same Die-Crack on variety 32-1 is from the right corner of the same Denticle. The Die-Crack on variety 32 runs very close to the same 5, whereas the same Die-Crack on variety 32-1 runs slightly more distant from the same 5. The Die-Crack on variety 32 extends to the base of the ground; the Die-Crack of variety 32-1 passes through the vertical of the same 5.

A Die-Crack is through BANK.
This Die-Crack is from the lower section of the right-side of the upper curve of the B in BANK, extending to the upper section of the left-side of the left Leg of the A in BANK, on-line with the tip of the inner triangle, and exiting slightly below the upper corner of the right-side of the right Leg of the same letter, and continuing through the Serifs of the N and K in the same word.
Note - Again, diligent scrutiny must be exercised to properly differentiate betwixt the two, as this Die-Crack is similar to variety 32, but variety 32 exits the apogee of the right-side of the upper curve of the B, whereas variety 32-1 originates from the lower section of the same curve. Variety 32 enters the Leg of the A higher than does variety 32-1.
Variety 32-1 exits the Leg of the same A higher than does variety 32.


Reverse Characteristics: The same as variety 31, but having different Die-Cracks.

The St. Andrew's Cross frame below the E in TOKEN is broken in the middle.
The end of the outline of the Union Jack is forked.
The Anchor Ring is perfect.
The Battle-Axe Head has a hole
The lower ornamental Ball is present.

The Stand of the T in TOKEN is weakly struck.

The Stand of the N in TOKEN is half struck to the left, and fully struck to the right.

The right-side of the Stand of the Upright of the K in BANK is weakly struck.
The right-side of the Stand of the Leg of the K in BANK is weakly struck.
The right-side of the Stand of the Leg of the K in TOKEN is weakly struck.
The right-side of the Serif of the right Arm of the Y in PENNY is weakly struck.
The right inner ornamental ball is connected to the Cornucopias.

Severe Die-Clashes are below the base of the Anchor.
The most discernable design element is a wide rectangular masses betwixt the point of the Anchor and the left Cornucopia. This mass has a bend slightly before reaching the Cornucopia. The right-side of this mass is slightly to the right of the Point of the Anchor; the left-side is beyond the left-side of the Anchor Shaft. Many other markings are evident, but are not necessary in order to negate congruency.
Note - Many Die-Clashes may appear similar; each Die-Clash is germane to a specific die variety. Deviations in the placement of the Die-Clash negate congruency.

A small Speck is to the left of the T in TOKEN.
This Speck is on-line slightly below lower vertical of the left Serif of the T in TOKEN, and on-line slightly to the right of the upper right-side Crown Jewel.
Note - The Speck is not readily discernable on lower grade specimens.

From broken dies.
A Die-Crack is to the F in HALF.
This Die-Crack is from the right-section of the Denticle below the left-side of the Stand of the F in HALF, extending to the left-section of the Upright of the same letter, exiting the right-section of the same Upright and extending to the vertex of the Cornucopias.

Thus:
32-1 A Die-Crack is to the left of the 5.
Die-Crack as above, plus a Die-Crack connects BANK (obverse).
Die-Cracks as above, plus a Die-Crack is to the F in HALF.



Enjoy

doug
Edited by colonialtokens
03/03/2018 12:55 am
Moderator
Learn More...
SPP-Ottawa's Avatar
Canada
10456 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2018  11:47 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow Doug....
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
5585 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2018  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm in with the rest at 58 for wear and 55 total (maybe a little cleaning). There is wear in the cornucopia fruit, the plumes in the crown, his hand on the sword and his cape.
Valued Member
Muskokarocks's Avatar
Canada
63 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2018  4:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Muskokarocks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi thanks for the replys. I was out of touch for a bit on this one. This is how the coin came to me. I really like how it looks in hand. The consensus is that its au and been cleaned to reveal the shinny bits. I really appreciate the opinions here rather than having my coins in plastic flips with one persons opinion on it. Its great to be able to photo, look at compare etc. This forum also lets the public a chance to see, compare and learn. Its a great thing here for coin collecting. Thanks again.
  Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 3,076Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.42 seconds to rattle this change. Forums