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Here's One You Don't See Too Often...

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Valued Member

United States
324 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  1:07 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
which is an altered 1926 5c coin - where the 6 has been shortened to make it appear as a far 6:



Image: Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often... 1926.jpg
18.58 KB


Here's the link on ebay where it recently traded:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Canada-Scarce-1...ts_W0QQitemZ310066068046QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item310066068046&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In this case I'm going to side with the seller.
While it appears a nub has been removed from the end of the 6, that wouldn't be enough to fake a Far 6.
More importantly, the baseline of the 6 matches the 2 well enough for me to think it's genuine.
The baseline on the N6 is noticeably higher--that's a second diagnostic I use when I'm unsure of the first.

Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often...
Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What you need to do (which is what I did) is overlay the image on a Near 6, and you will see the portion that has been removed. In fact, you can even see in the image the residual outline of where the original 6 was.
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
mkb, I find overlays useful at times, yet the results ultimately depend whether two photos compare accurately to make an overlay useful. For instance, if the photos are shot at slightly different angles, the overlay results may be inaccurate too.

For that reason, I prefer to compare relationships within each coin and that way results are less dependent on optical distortions. But, everyone has their own methods. Here's a quick example of mine, where I compare baselines of the coin in question (top) to a verified Far 6 and Near 6. To my eyes, the 6 in the "Near 6" is notably above the baseline of the 2, but the coin in question (top) is closer in that regard to the verified "Far 6" (middle)--that's just what I see. Similarly, I don't think you could cut off that much of the 6 to look "far" while preserving a shape that looks so similar to the verified coin--any possible damage is quite slight.

click for full-size
Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often...

That's just my opinion of course, but I think before we cast any aspersions on ebay sellers, we need to be more certain this is some kind of forgery. Here I tend to feel this coin is legit, with perhaps die, post-mint damage, or simply a bad photo.
Edited by KurtS
07/17/2008 4:51 pm
Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's the 6's side by side, with the altered Near 6 overlaid on top of the normal Near 6:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/...s/5c1926.jpg
Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is the same image - rearranged:

Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often...
Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wrong one... now here's the right one:

Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often...
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
mkb,
I'm still going to disagree here. If it's a matter of simply overlaying the Near 6 with the "altered" 6, that doesn't take into account the different position of those digits in relation to the whole date. Position is important too; that's the second criteria I use when I have doubts about damage to a 6. Besides, one could also overlay verified Near6/Far6 and arrive at a similar discrepancy, as the 6 on the "Far 6" coin is stubbier--you can see that in your side-by-side directly above.

Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often...

Like I said, I feel I can eyeball the differences here, but I did these comparisons for the benefit of the forum. I'll let others comment further if they like.
Edited by KurtS
07/17/2008 6:08 pm
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SHAFTA9a's Avatar
Canada
10743 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SHAFTA9a to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
mkb.. I've got to agree with Kurt on this, as you can see in Kurts pics, the difference from the leaf.

Even if the end had been altered, it was still far enough away to be a far 6.

IMHO.
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livingdinasaur's Avatar
United States
1571 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  7:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingdinasaur to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I find it difficult, (for me, to make a good comparison in this type of test. I prefer the use of the whole date, (where the digits are involved in a position, or font, etc), rather than the use of single digits, with lines for reference. The Charlton catalog uses the same procedure. with the whole date, etc, one can relate to the difference(s), and see where there is a variation. I realize that not everyone has the same vision problem that I have, and so it might be easier, by comparison. IMHO.
Dick
Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  7:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I tell ya, these images are more than enough for me. The images show that the altered Near 6 is clearly shorter than the unaltered Near 6. Or did the six come in multiple sizes when the coins were minted? This type of altering has been going on for probably over 50 years by now. The coin in question could have been altered decades ago.
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2008  7:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Regarding this specific variety--yes, I have observed the 6 of the "Far 6" variety to have a shorter vertical stroke than the "Near 6" version. Even so, altering the stroke of a 6 does't affect the digit's position relative to the rest of the date--that's the best way to determine an altered date on a question coin (IMO). Therefore, if the 6's baseline was equal to a Near 6, I would've agreed with you.
Edited by KurtS
07/17/2008 7:46 pm
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wwhitman's Avatar
United States
1415 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2008  12:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wwhitman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are pics of mine.

I think I will vote for the altered.
To me it looks like the end of the '6' has been cut off.



Image: Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often... Canada_5Cent_1926_Obv.jpg
79.63 KB





Image: Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often... Canada_5Cent_1926_Rev.jpg
72.19 KB
Edited by wwhitman
07/18/2008 01:22 am
Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2008  01:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I pulled down a couple of images from heritage coin - a Near 6 and a Far 6 (since they have decent images to work with). In overlaying the two Heritage 6's, KurtS is correct in stating that the Far 6 has a slightly shorter vertical stroke than the Near 6. However, the 6 in question has an even shorter vertical stroke than the shorter Far 6. This may be due to altering it or it may be due to damage as I have a Near 6 with damage right at the tip of the 6, in which the tip is nearly removed. In the 6 in question, a residual part of the full digit can still be seen (or so it appears). As for how the digit lines up, the base of both Near 6 and Far 6 are at about the same horizontal level. However, the Far 6 is tilted (from the top) a bit towards the 2 as compared to the Near 6. This is easily seen when overlaying the two Heritage images. But its not as easy to see when overlaying the image of the 6 in question (probably because it has weaker resolution). However, that said, the tilt of the axis of the 6 in the image of the coin in question is a closer match to that of the Far 6, than it is to that of the Near 6.
Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2008  2:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's an image to illustrate:

Here's-One-You-Don't-See-Too-Often...
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 07/18/2008  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On your last image, you should do the same for a Far 6 and compare to the "altered" 6 coin--if you want.
Like I said, I can eyeball the baselines of the 6 for both varieties and come to a quick determination for myself.
I find the "axis orientation" you show a difficult diagnostic because I don't see a reference for aligning both ends of that line. What do the baselines tell you?

Here I feel I've said too much--and possibly come across as some tedious hair-splitter, LOL when calling this variety is much easier--IMO. One should be able to call a Far 6 in less than a minute, even if something funky is going on with the 6. The whole coin can be lost in the details. Cheers!
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