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Epiphany From A Peso. --El Otro Double Die Del Hombre Pobre

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Kawliga's Avatar
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212 Posts
 Posted 10/26/2018  11:06 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
If anyone may recall, I'm a newbie who (about a week ago) got pretty frustrated trying to understand how to identify a double die when you see it. I had submitted photos of a Shenandoah quarter that I thought showed clear doubling but was told it was only deteriorating die doubling. When the other telltale sloppy signs of a DDD was pointed out to me, I was fine with accepting that (and I've come across some other DDD's since then and knew immediately that's what they were). But what continued to irk me was how some photos of actual DD's didn't look the slightest bit doubled to me--no hint of extra lines on any sides of letters/numbers shown! Explanations of these didn't help either. Reading that they had "little to no spread, but added thickness" seemed like b.s. --to me they looked just as narrow as normal ones.

--You see what I did there? I was taking 'thickness' to mean 'WIDTH.' And I bet I'm not the only one to have that misunderstanding at first. After all, spread CAN add the appearance of overall width, but that's totally separate from thickness. Thickness is DEPTH, PROTRUSION, 3D-NESS, STICK-OUTEDNESS.

How did I finally have the epiphany? Well I got so sick of looking at Abe and George, I bought 3 pounds of bulk foreign coins from my local shop, just to enjoy looking at Elizabeth and other Georges (and fish, horses, pigs, pagodas, etc.) for a while. At one point yesterday I was studying a 1981 Mexican Peso, trying to figure out which variety I had, and I was having some trouble focusing on the date with my magnifier. I thought, 'Well, I don't know if that's an open or closed 8, but these numbers sure do stick out far.' And then I saw the lines on the edges. And THEN I saw the mint mark, and it was like BAM! OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD! So that's when I realized, doubling is literally STACKING. Even if it doesn't show lines (spread), it can still be doubled, just stacked with perfect alignment. By the way, I also discovered Variety Vista, so now I can see exactly where to look for doubling on my US coins (now I have to reexamine all the ones I already looked at).

So for any other newbie troubled by doubling identification, or for anyone trying to explain it to them, two very important things:
1. Thickness isn't width; it's how far from the field something stands out.
2. You can't really see thickness in photos, because duh, they're 2D!!

Epiphany-From-A-Peso.----El-Otro-Double-Die-Del-Hombre-Pobre
Epiphany-From-A-Peso.----El-Otro-Double-Die-Del-Hombre-Pobre
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coop's Avatar
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62064 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2018  3:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well what you have is called Machine Doubling. What is Machine Doubling. After the strike by a normal die, the die move even the slightest, it reduces/damages the devices. On your second image on the 'O', note the left side of the 'O' compared with the right side of the 'O'? On a right side of the 'O' is it thinner because of MD. also note the very center of that curve you can see where the metal was pushed back like a snow plow, moving the metal and pushing it aside. The area that is move is still showing the bottom part of the actual device.
Epiphany-From-A-Peso.----El-Otro-Double-Die-Del-Hombre-Pobre
The stacking up you mention is just metal pushed upwards from the die a doubled die enlarges the devices, not making them smaller.
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Kawliga's Avatar
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212 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2018  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I appreciate you trying to help but I don't understand what you mean. There are places where a period or comma would help, but as written I cannot figure out what you're saying, for example, read this out loud: "The stacking up you mention is just metal pushed upwards from the die a doubled die enlarges the devices, not making them smaller." --How do you know this 'o' or 'm' ARE smaller than they're supposed to be? There's no other-sized one to refer to in the picture. Or I just don't know what you mean.
Are you saying I'm STILL incorrect about what to look for? So how can you ever know if something really IS double die? It seems like it is only if someone says it is. One day I'm being told mint marks are applied by hand, the next it's a "machine" issue. Hmmmm.........
Edited by Kawliga
10/27/2018 4:08 pm
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Kawliga's Avatar
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212 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2018  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is there a good video on this? It seems very difficult for people to explain in text with still photos.
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 10/28/2018  08:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Check on ebay for another coin like the one you have. The look on the same area. Then you will see what I'm talking about.

Looks like I did miss as period on that line. But what you refer to as stacking I'd the machine pushing the metal on those areas to a new location. This happened after the strike. On a doubled die, the doubling is on the die, not caused by the strike. What you are seeing in post strike damage. What we refer to as Machine Doubling. (Damage to the devices) This is very common on coins from all Countries.
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Kawliga's Avatar
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212 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2018  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So Okay, quite simply, how can I know if I have a coin that IS double die? Because (for the hundredth time) all the photos I see of ones that allegedly are REAL double die, don't look any different from all these ones yall say are noting special.
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 Posted 10/29/2018  2:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Epiphany-From-A-Peso.----El-Otro-Double-Die-Del-Hombre-Pobre
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Kawliga's Avatar
United States
212 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2018  10:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know how anyone see the doubled one as "reduced." It looks exactly the same size as the normal one to me, but just doubled. If anything, the doubled one looks slightly larger.
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