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Die States: Why Are They Important? (Added More Images)

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 Posted 12/07/2018  2:08 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Die States: Why are they important?

If you have been on the forum for some time, you probably have noticed that I prefer EDS coins over worn die examples. Many enjoys die cracks, die chips, die breaks and other events that happen on later die state coins. But what do I see that others maybe missing? The die state. An earlier die state will strike very nice coins. They smile for the camera. (well to me they do) So perhaps seeing coins as the die ages, will help others to appreciated them even more. When you can spot the differences, you view towards coins will change. When you see a coin for sale and it is an earlier die state, you will spot it. So lets see if you can train your eye a bit more. Not that you always have to do this, but when you see a coin that catches your eye, you will know why.
1986 cent:
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
1987 cent:
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Do they look different to you? Both are high grade coins. But which one would you be more inclined to buy? So by examining the coins as the die progresses to wear, it where to start.
Take a look at the 'L' area on LIBERTY. This is one of the first places I look for die wear:
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Did you note the die wear, die flow and the breakdown of the devices. This is progressive as the die wears. All die go through this. so would you rather have the first coin struck or the last coin struck with a die. I know my answer. But now, you get an idea of what to look for.
But let's check another area. On the 'TRUST' on the motto you can often see the die wear even faster there:
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Now you get an idea of what I see on a coin when I mention the die state as being an earlier die state. So coins that are only a few to be struck will come from a fresher die. The 1964 obverse SMS coins were probably less that 100 struck.
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Even closer views of these coins show the freshness of the dies:
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
The quarter reverses were created with a worn master hub, so I don't like those because they are weak in design. The 1964-D Type C were the better dies for that year.
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Same on the half dollars the dies were not as crisp. (probably for the same reason)
The 1943 cents on the wrong planchets should all be an earlier die state and they were in transition of copper changing into steel cents.
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
But some examples I feel was struck at a later time because the dies are showing wear on the dies, thus a weaker die state.
Special test strike coins will have a fresher die state.
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
So when I get excited about a coins die state, it is something I see on the coin. I hope you will now see what I see on die states of coins.

Often you can find EDS cents in circulation:
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Even doubled dies are out there in earlier die states.
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Wheat cent reverses:
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Memorial Obverses:
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images

If the coin they are selling is in an earlier die state, down the road when you want to sell it, you can point this out. A true collector would appreciate a better die state of coin. Someday, they might recognize these on the slabs. (but not yet)
CoopHome : Die States
Edited by coop
12/07/2018 9:30 pm
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 Posted 12/07/2018  2:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop thank you for the very informative post, the pictures are outstanding and illustrate your points so clearly. I have a question about this - at what grade point might the die state affect the technical grade?

I have heard of die state and technical grade as being somewhat independent but also for very high MS coins the strike has an ever-increasing bearing on technical grade. i.e. a very-late die state coin could not obtain a MS 69 or 70 but would it also be precluded from 67 designation even without any marks?

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 Posted 12/07/2018  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eyes4Error to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Coop as always...something new for me to pay more attension to.

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 Posted 12/07/2018  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When a coin is graded, the die state, Machine Doubling, fingerprints and other things are not figured into the grade of the coin. If it happened at the mint, they accept that. But as a buyer, look for what you don't like about even graded coins. They miss the mark a lot. So when buying graded coins, but the coin, not the plastic. Some companies are over grading coins. You determine if it is correct before you buy it. If the images are a not great, pass. They maybe trying to unload a problem coin. If there are serial numbers, check them out, before you buy. If they can't provide better images, pass. So because they don't grade according to die state, if you see a nice graded coin, then go for it. Seeing is knowing what your are going to get.
Edited by coop
12/07/2018 2:32 pm
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 Posted 12/07/2018  2:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Eyes4Error to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did not know that about grading. I tossed tons of LDS that actually looked pretty nice, just because they were showing deterioration.

I am a bit of a perfectionist and would say I like the EDS coins visually better... so I get your point, and why you love them too! They are much more visually appealing!

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 Posted 12/08/2018  10:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, now I'm adding the different die states for Memorial reverses. Lets see if you can spot why they are different grades? Click on the images and open them even larger to see why I put them in that order. Enjoy.
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
Edited by coop
12/08/2018 10:22 pm
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 Posted 12/25/2018  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Adding some information on the reverse Memorial die states. Most of the time you can find the later die states and not the fresher die states. So I found a few on the 1969-D Memorial cents.
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
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 Posted 12/26/2018  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Boxcar12 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK that explains a lot of issues. Thank you.
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 Posted 12/26/2018  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I try to give a round perspective on coins. Why they look the way they do? What did happen to see the result of a coin I found? Why something could happen during the minting process.
Now you see why I like EDS coins a lot more. They look so fresh. Often new ones will find one and think they have a doubled die, but it just a better die state coin.
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 Posted 12/26/2018  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RaleighCoinDeal to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I started looking at your pictures and had to stop to make some popcorn ! This was better than a movie. Great work and help for many I'm sure ! It's almost should be a Must Read !
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 Posted 12/27/2018  08:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Funny you should mention a movie. On my signature line, you will see 1-5? Those are YouTube videos. About 2 hours. Broken down into 20 minutes sessions. Also you can click on the CoopHome link and see information on threads and additions on subjects. Some have over 100 images. You can get there clicking on the word in this post. Thanks for your comments.
Also
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 Posted 08/05/2021  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Going through some old threads. Giving this one a bump! A lot of great info/pictures in here and thought others would appreciate a look. Collecting by die state and/or focusing on a specific die state for a series can be quite the challenge, but very rewarding.

Of course, I'd expect nothing less from coop!
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 Posted 08/06/2021  11:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Die-States:-Why-Are-They-Important?-Added-More-Images
A lot of time is spent finding images/editing images/describing what you are seeing. The thing is seeing puts a longer memory aid. Thus the now 9 pages of links. When you find an example you really appreciate, bump it back to the cue by adding a comment. Also why you enjoyed this thread. It may help many new ones with issues they are facing. I refer to these as "Answers to questions you not thought of yet." Everyday, I'm still adding more.
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 Posted 08/06/2021  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cons to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love this lesson in die states. Thank you coop, as always stellar explanations and the side by side photos are the bomb!
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