1805 8R Does Anyone See A Problem Here?

tdziemia You raise a good point which did not enter my thinking when I wrote up the post. A genuine coin in this grade (and cleaned) is likely worth less than $100. A known Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit on the other hand would likely be worth more.

So the question now becomes: Is the coin GENUINE?

thq Yes it is a cheap modern forgery. They have been very common for a couple years now. The design is simply incorrect. This is the 10th copy I have documented from ebay. The mint mark has an eccentric superscript which is not likely since both the M and the o are part of ONE punch. For the same reason the three fleur-de-lis in the center oval (also one punch) are incorrectly tilted note the upper feft flower tilts outward instead of inward. Finally the portrait is incorrect - the smile is the wrong shape as is the eye.

As I normally do I wrote to the seller to advise him he was selling a recently made Numismtic Forgery.

I said:


He replied:


So I replied:


His reply:


This reply is most often used by sellers who knowingly are engaged in fraud. I saw this dozens of times when I worked for ebay. It is not the reply of an honest salesman. This is a dodge that uses a return policy as a smoke screen. It evades the issue of the coin itself being illegal under the HPA. It is a coin that must be marked COPY to be sold in the US and should not be sold on ebay or any other venue without a proper description. The average novice collector will be defrauded if he buys such an item. The coin is WORTHLESS. A well informed buyer who happens to collect counterfeits and forgeries might pay $5 to own one example for reference.

This auction in my opinion constitutes a fraud and any seller who justifies his sales with this excuse should be banned from ebay and jailed. Of course finding a willing DA would be difficult.

So I reported the coin to ebay. However, I doubt my report will even stop this one auction. With no way to judge, ebay will allow the seller's word to carry the same weight as mine and do NOTHING at all.

This is the problem with ebay and other venues that do not act as auctioneers. I have gotten the same kinds of non-answers from other internet auction venues like Six Bid and Invaluable.

thq You say:


That statement is absolutely correct - that is the main PROBLEM.

This is NOT the way it should be.

The seller is directly violating ANA rules. If he is an ANA member he should be sanctioned.

He is absolutely violating ebay rules and should be suspended or permanently barred.

He is also violating a range of US laws against defrauding individuals in commerce. The buyer beware defense does not apply to people who knowingly sell forgeries as real even if the buyer is clueless and therefore does not initially recognize the swindle.

I reported this coin using the "new report system" where you can not even give a reason for what you are saying. No room for facts. No room for proof or test results. And worst of all no response provided by ebay. Talk about a WORTHLESS PROCESS. Now ebay can as a venue use the excuse of "let the buyer beware".

At what point should ebay take responsible action with regard to people engaged in serial fraud?

Bob, the display case I showed is right out in broad daylight in a brick-and-mortar shop. The coins are being sold without any warning to the buyer that they are counterfeit. Yet no one cares to prosecute this obvious fraud.

I suppose I should go back and buy one of the fake coins, send it into ANACS for confirmation, file a police report and watch what happens.

Regarding ebay I've always considered it caveat emptor and have only been burned a few times, and usually not on coins. There are some bargains to be had among the general overpricing. I would not have a superb Schelschop collection 1/2 reale late Potosi cob without ebay. Some coins are not worth sending to Heritage no matter how interesting they are because they're not valuable enough.

Good luck with prosecution. Here in NC there was a case (the shop where I was a part time authenticator) where over $10,000 in fraudulent coins was taken by the police as a result of the scammer being delayed by the shop owner while other staff called the cops.

The guy had outstanding warrants which was the only reason he was arrested. The cops did not care about the fraud that the guy was running. Too much effort to prosecute. Hope your jurisdictions actually care.

Regarding a brick and mortar shop - check to see if the owner is a member of ANA. If he is that is a better route since they will do something - suspend membership for sure and possibly black list him for fraud.

"are the other ones I got on sale..." (cue fiddle music)

Bob, bless your heart for trying with some of these people... but you know full well, assume most people are ignoramuses (ignoramusii?) and you and I shan't be disappointed.

Talking to ppl like this is pointless. The only thing you can really do is have a webpage set up where you show the commonly occurring fakes such as this, the 1776FF and friends, etc., shown next to/contrasted with genuine types... completely idiot-proof... and then and ONLY then will you have a 10-20% chance of some of these yo-yos caring.