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 Replies: 11 / Views: 986 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
I have a question relating to differing perceptions of the quality of coins in various parts of the world. I have noticed that in the US, many strive to have coins in the absolute highest grade possible. In fact, I have heard of people upgrading, for example, their 1887 O Morgan in MS65 in their collection to an MS 66, and spending substantial amounts of money in order to do so. In addition, many in the US submit very nice BU 2008 cents to PCGS in hopes of it coming back as an MS70 or MS69, which supposedly would confirm that the coin has notable value. By contrast, I have known some German numismatists who care more about having a nice set in, say EF-AU, and wouldn't really see the point in upgrading their coins to high MS state. Is this just due to a different concept of what is a quality, collectible coin or is it a symptom of the US having only a bit over 200 years of coinage for one to collect? In the words of my grandfather, who is from Europe, "Why would I want to upgrade my Thalers? They are all EF-AU and have most of their detail. But most of all they have a bit of character in their appearance, and I know that they actually have had an interesting story in circulation rather than just being in some hoard for countless years."
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
If a coin's EF-AU, an upgrade from say EF40 to EF45 or from AU53 to AU55 usually doesn't yield much increase in value.
A MS65 Morgan going to MS66 can add $100K to the value of a key date.
Some people look for PQ MS coins hoping that the upgrade will result in big profits.
I like collecting key date Lincolns in EF-AU. There's a huge price break over the MS coins and like you mentioned, with a good strike, they look great!
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Moderator
 Australia
16827 Posts |
I think a stable marketplace where tiny increases in grade mean huge increases in price is only possible where there are uniformly trusted standards of grading, and a reasonable estimation of the "condition populations" of the coins.
In other words, where there are TPGs.
Europe for the most part doesn't have them, doesn't believe in them, and even if they have heard of them they don't trust them. So grading is still much more subjective there. Subjectivity means uncertainty, uncertainty means risk and risk means fewer people willing to pay high prices. Fewer people means less demand.
In short, rare coins in Europe (and elsewhere) in high condition are still more desirable, there's just less demand to drive the prices up.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Valued Member
United States
419 Posts |
I can't afford to sink to much into my collection so most of mine are well circulated or just lucky finds. However, I agree with your grandfather about the character of the coins. I have a large cent with nice details that has an initial on the back as well as one that was made into a necklace. Those are two of my favorite coins because of the history behind them. I like to ponder on what the story behind those coins are and to me that is more valuable than a perfect specimen that sat in a box and has for the most part no real story. That is why I collect coins... I love History!
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3499 Posts |
Well, I do think that the issue is also raised as to why people in the US feel the need to upgrade to such a high condition. (Isn't an MS 65 quite nice and not that much different in appearance from a 66?). Might this also have to do with the fact that there is so little for people to collect with regard to US coins (though I do realize that Australia and many other countries have even shorter histories of coinage), whereas someone from say Italy has thousands of years of coins on which to focus? So ultimately could one argue that the mindset of the majority of US collectors with regard to what constitutes a top- rate set of a type of coin is different from that of numismatists from every other corner of the globe? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
While I agree that there are people in the US that fit your description I doubt that they make up a significant majority of the collectors here.
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Moderator
United States
188342 Posts |
 I am definitely not one of them. I collect what I can from circulation and go for the middle grades when I have to buy. I have had the majority of my coins for over twenty years now. There is too much personal history in them; upgrading is just not something I want or feel a need to do.  |
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
I only upgrade a coin if the coin I have is in really bad shape (pitted,damaged)most of the coin from when I started collecting wanst in to good of shape because I really didnt know what I was doing and didnt spend the few extra dollar for the better coin and its cost me in the long run
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Quote:
A MS65 Morgan going to MS66 can add $100K to the value of a key date. And since no person or grading service can consistently tell the difference, it's a fool's investment. Historically, higher grade coins have risen in value faster than lower grade coins. So in addition to collector demand for nice coins, their prices are driven up by investors looking for the best return on their money. You would think they'd have learned that investment prices are only maintained if there is collector demand, but they apparently didn't. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
936 Posts |
I think one of the major reasons is education. If a buyer is not educated in the series he is buying and only buys on a TPG's interpretation of a grade then he is buying foolishly. Then the "mine is bigger than yours" mentality comes into play, look at the registry sets for examples of this. When I first started collecting Lincolns my only goal was to fill the holes with BU red examples, as I read more books, forums like this one and went to more coin shows, I realized my collection was boring and not what it should be. I started buying cents that were attractive to me and that is all that matters. I would show someone my Dansco and it was boring to them as they saw the same looking cent through the whole book, now when someone looks at it they see color and character in each one of the cents. As for the TPG's, everywhere you look they are being pushed upon collectors. It's a marketing scheme that has payed off for them (we wont go into CAC). You take that along with all of the forgeries that have fueled the public's perception that they "need" a TPG, you have the perfect storm for marketing. As a collector who does want the best ROI, TPG's are favorable. If I were to put up a 1952 MS67 on ebay raw, it would probably fetch $30, if PCGS slabs it MS67 then it would sell for $500+. This is fueled by the public's lack of education, if every collector knew how to grade and tell a fake from an authentic, there would be no need for the TPG's. I do not know how the European's way of life is so I can not comment on that. I do know how us Americans are with everything else, bigger house, car, boat, diamond, label on their shirt, coins are just another label for some. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote:
While I agree that there are people in the US that fit your description I doubt that they make up a significant majority of the collectors here.
TRUE, TRUE, TRUE. The vast, vast, really vast majority of people that collect coins, stamps, cars, baseball cards are just collectors, not fanatics. It is supposed to be fun. I always remember when my Dad used to go bowling. Everyone was so serious about the bowling and I thought what a bunch of wierdos. Everyone had to be still when someone was throwing a ball. Why take a game so serious. I thought it was supposed to be fun. Now I find that is true of almost all sports, hobbies, etc. There are always a few that go overboard with something and for some reason people think everyone into that is the same. No, with coins most can not and do not want to constantly upgrade each coin. Most collectors I know are just happy with what they have. It is a hobby and is for fun, fun, fun. |
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Valued Member
United States
442 Posts |
I own very few slabbed coins. I do have nice, uncirculated examples of several coins but it's not an obsession.
I like an uncirculated coin WHEN I can afford it as a nice example of what the coin DID look like in it's pristine state.
Even then mine are not usually pristine. Loving copper as I do finding full red examples of 19th Century U.S. type just doesn't fit my budget too well.
For every uncirculated type I own I have several circulated of the same design. I like them toned naturally, wear does not bother me. As my boss and another local dealer like to say "that coin has good, original dirt".
Were I filthy rich I would have a lot more "pristine" examples. I'd still have all my others as well.
After all, most coins WERE meant to circulate.
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Replies: 11 / Views: 986 |
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Posted 10/03/2008 11:01 pm
