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To participate in the forum you must log in or register. | Author |
 Replies: 6 / Views: 1,160 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7947 Posts |
This is a question for the few CCF members who may have one or more catalogs on French feudal coins (Boudeau, or others... none of which I have). I do not have this coin, but see it listed everywhere (Numista, cgb, MA-Shops) as a "Gros au St. Etienne Debout," or a "gros with standing St. Stephen." https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces197922.htmlI am bothered by the iconography being completely wrong for this naming of the coin. The figure pictured is clearly a bishop, which St. Stephen never was. The figure has no halo. The legend bears the name of the bishop who was doing the coining, theirry de Boppart (1365-1384). In their Traite de Numismatique du Moyen Age (1905), Engel and Serrure write "theirry created the gros with standing bishop, which ranks among the most beautiful coins of the middle ages." And later on the same page, say this about theirry's successor: "Raoul de Coucy (1387-1415) struck large and superb gros of the type St. Stephen standing, holding a rock from his stoning and a martyr's palm." My question: what do the French catalogs (not Numista in this case) call the gros of theirry? (hmmm ... I am also bothered that my title will not come out with the word "au" spelled correctly, nor with T h I e r r y spelled correctly  ) Edited by tdziemia
04/06/2020 5:08 pm
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Moderator
 United States
34418 Posts |
@tdz, this coin looks like Roberts #8941. Here is what he has to say about these pieces: Quote:
The figure on the coins listed here generally represents St. Stephen, the patron saint of Metz, although one, struck at Remiremont, shows Saint Peter, and several later issues show the bishop holding his crozier and wearing his miter. The personal arms of the bishop appear on many of the later issues. In terms of the denomination, I would just call this a "Gros". Here is one example of someone else who does the same: https://www.ma-shops.com/sauer/item.php?id=108"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2133 Posts |
The point is not that St Stephen wasn't a bishop but that Metz had been associated with St Stephen for more than 500 years - a shrine of St Stephen having been there since antiquity.
That's why the cathedral is dedicated to St Stephen.
I've always seen this coin denominated as a "gros au saint etienne", though I can't get to my copy of Poey, at the moment.
Would you be happier if the coin was called a Metz gros ?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7947 Posts |
Possibly Poey does not cover Metz/Lorraine? I looked at the copy in Numista and could not find, but I don't now my way around that work. I'm aware of the cult of St. Stephen in Metz from very early times. My point is that this is not an image of St. Stephen, yet it seems to be a majority viewpoint today that it is. The mitre and crozier are the accoutrements of a bishop (also mentioned in what @spence posted). St Stephen was a deacon, a lower level position that would never have been confused with a bishop. It is an image of the man who authorized the coinage, the bishop of Metz, theirry de Boppart. It was common practice in coinage of episcopal cities in the Germanic world in this era for the bishop's image to be on the coin. This was known in 1905 in the reference I cited, but that information was lost somehow. Or later catalogers ignored it or disagreed with it. Or others in the present just leapt to an assumption. Incorrectly. (time to get off my high horse  Edited by tdziemia
04/06/2020 7:53 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
For others with less specialist knowledge (such as myself),
I found the illustrations on
Google Images:-
'Bishops of Metz gros' quite informative, relative to this thread.
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Moderator
United States
34418 Posts |
Quote:
Possibly Poey does not cover Metz/Lorraine? I looked at the copy in Numista and could not find, but I don't now my way around that work. Interestingly, neither PdA nor Duplessy include the coins of Metz, but my Krause 16th Century German Coin book does. Perhaps you are hitting the nail on the head in that Metz contains some elements of both German and French traditions. Also, the index of cities in PdA begins on page 447 of the 3rd volume (page 457 of the scan that I am using). "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7947 Posts |
I think Metz, Lorraine and Alsace were all vassals of the Holy Roman Empire which puts them in a numismatic no-man's-land. Krause has them under German States, but these places are all French now, and hence subject to other cataloger's whims. Grateful for all the thoughtful responses, and sorry for whining about the misattributed images on this example. The more I learn about the religious iconography and numismatic history of places like this, the testier I get about errors that get propagated. I;m gonna blame it on cabin fever for now  . THAT's the next pandemic. Edited by tdziemia
04/06/2020 10:47 pm
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Replies: 6 / Views: 1,160 |
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Posted 04/06/2020 7:01 pm
