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Speaking Of Charlton...

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daltonista's Avatar
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1058 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2020  4:07 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Locked down in upstate New York for the last six weeks, I've finally dug out a couple of boxes of Canadian tokens I haven't looked at in maybe 35 years. Back then I was collecting the exonumia of the entire "British World," more or less according to Remick, Pridmore, Rennick, Lyall, Haxby/Willey, and other distinguished catalogers. Since then I've narrowed my interest down considerably, focusing almost exclusively on the British copper and silver tokens of 1811-20, with Davis, Dalton, and The Big Green Withers as my bibles.

Thanks to the "Anglo-Canadian" component of my current specialty -- the copper side of it, at least -- I've kept up with the Charlton token catalogs as well. I received the latest (10th edition) back in February, I guess.

In any event, in my coronaboredom I thought I'd check out my old hoard of blacksmith tokens against the new Charlton to see how they've been doing, value-wise. Some appear to have appreciated very nicely over the last 3-4 decades, but it's hard to figure how that appreciation is just general run-of-the-mill inflation.

My big letdown, however, was the catalog itself: pages 205-224 are missing, and those pages cover roughly half the blacksmith universe.

Fortunately, my collection of Charltons is complete, so I went to my back copies...only to find out that the 9th edition is missing the same pages. Thankfully, those pages are present in my copies of the 7th and 8th editions, so I had something for reference, but the values are probably obsolete and out the window by now.

Thanks to the miracle of modern e-mail, within a few days I had the bookseller and the editor, with both of whom I've done some business over the years, on the case. I'll be returning the books for replacements from the publisher, and Clement reports that the distributor checked their supply and found no issues there...so I guess I'm special.

Thought I'd ask here whether any of you have run into the same problem...or if you wouldn't mind checking your Charlton 9th and 10th to see whether my find amounts to two consecutive unique mint errors. (Again, that's pages 205-224.)

By way of eye candy for my exonumaniacal brethren (and sistern, if any), I'll add one of my more recent additions at the end of this entry. Looking forward to hearing about your Charlton!

Thank you, and stay safe, please ~
Tom

Speaking-Of-Charlton...

"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


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oriole's Avatar
Canada
5239 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2020  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Probably some of those Canadian tokens circulated in upstate New York back in the day...
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1960NYGiants's Avatar
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666 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2020  5:38 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My copy of the 10th is complete.

Nice NS-20A3!!
LM of RCNA
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Silver101's Avatar
Canada
1081 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2020  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The tokens are a mystery to me. They're fascinating and, while not especially rare at low grade, the higher grades are quite hard to find. Seriously, the Rutherfords...the Brock...all the "Commercial Change" tokens - such variety prior to the Durham report! And then everything became Britain with the Monarchy on one side and maple leaves on the other.

Okay, that's a little dyspeptic. But still, the tokens need some love!
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daltonista's Avatar
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1058 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2020  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
oriole, I certainly agree with you, but it was probably happening more extensively a decade or two earlier than this example...that is, before the US Mint took over the small change franchise and started standardizing everything pretty competently.

Silver 101, I'm not reading anything particularly dyspeptic into what you said, but as far as Canadian tokens needing more love is concerned, ho ho, keep an eye out for the July 5 Heritage sale of Part II of the Doug Robins collection (cataloging now underway). Part I, two years ago this month, was a blockbuster, and while it did prove your point about the rarity, or at least the supply-and-demand equation, for higher grade material, it left me sort of wishing their were fewer lovers out there!

Gene, thank you for checking your Charlton! And also for the compliment on my token, although you've sent me to the books with your ID. I've had it tagged as an A2 on account of the distance between the N and Y on the Rx. There are four of these pennies in my collection, representing at least three varieties, so now I've got to line them all up and look into the diagnostics. Can't say I know how to tell a rough sea apart from a calm sea, though...they all look pretty choppy to me.

Are there enough token folks in this Canada forum to justify my posting them to show off the markers and round up some more opinions? (I have only Charlton and Withers to rely on.)

BTW, it's interesting to see that between Charltons 7 and 8 the markers all changed for NS-20 varieties. A1, for example, traded in its knob ampersand for a flat one!

My thanks to all three of you for being my first commenters. (Almost said "first responders"...Oy!)

Best ~
Tom

"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


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1960NYGiants's Avatar
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666 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2020  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmmm... didn't even look at the period position on the reverse. It sure looks like a calm seas obverse, so it could be NS-20A1. Please post larger views of the laurel sprig and the ship.
LM of RCNA
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daltonista's Avatar
United States
1058 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2020  5:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for taking a closer look, Gene. These NS-20's are making me crazy...crazy enough that I went all the way back to Courteau to see what else I might learn.

Also found an example in DNW's 11/8/17 sale (Lot 616) that they labeled Withers 1642, which Charlton ID's as 20A1, and it's different from mine in about a half dozen ways.

And of course that low, distant Y on the Rx is still calling my name.

Here are those snaps you wanted to check out:

Speaking-Of-Charlton...

Speaking-Of-Charlton...

Speaking-Of-Charlton...

I threw in the "H" because it strikes me as small compared to the others, and the endpoint for the exergue looks different from the DNW piece too.

Looking forward to learning what you think, Gene. Thanks again!

Tom


"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


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1960NYGiants's Avatar
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666 Posts
 Posted 04/29/2020  7:04 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The sprig matches NS-20A1 ans it looks like calm seas. So I stand with NS-20A1
LM of RCNA
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daltonista's Avatar
United States
1058 Posts
 Posted 04/29/2020  7:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
...but muled with the 20A2 reverse, right?

(If Charlton 10th Edition is our guide, that is.)

"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


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1960NYGiants's Avatar
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666 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2020  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe! I don't have the Courteau reference for these.
LM of RCNA
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daltonista's Avatar
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1058 Posts
 Posted 05/01/2020  12:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My bad...I actually do know better than to use any form of the term "mule" in connection with either British or Anglo-Canadian tokens of this era...they're usually just varieties, sometimes previously unpublished. I guess I've got a half dozen of this sort of "discovery piece" in my Davis/Withers collection, typically featuring a "new" die axis combination or edge.

My preferred descriptor within a type are "die pairings" and "minting idiosyncrasies."

As for Courteau, Gene, I've got to work on getting some "Quality Posts" onto my transcript, so keep an eye out for my next message in this forum.

Stay well, everybody!

"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


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