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Small Study Of And Questions About Early Talers

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Pillar of the Community

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 Posted 04/03/2021  9:15 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I was looking at early European Talers focusing on diameter. Four examples were examined to try to figure out if the blanks or planchets were rolled, stamped, and trimmed, or if the blanks or planchets were pre-cut and stamped. The diameter of four coins were measured as follows:
1. top to bottom
2. left to right
3. 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock
4. 8 o'clock to 2 o'clock
The greatest variance of diameter and the orientation are noted below:

Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers

Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers
Luneburg 1547 waning moon taler Dav 9419 0.57 mm variance top to bottom, 28.61 gm edge is perpendicular to the surface

Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers
Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers
Saxony 1594 3 brothers taler Dav 9820 0.67 mm variance left to right, 29.26 gm edge is perpendicular to the surface

Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers
Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers
Austria ND (circa 1626) Leopold and Claudia 2 taler Dav 3331 Hall mint 0.23 mm variance 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock, more than 50 gm one edge is slanted from the reverse to the portrait side to the reverse, not perpendicular

Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers
Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers
Hungary 1692 hog mouth thaler Dav 3264 0.59mm variance top to bottom, 28.75 gm one edge is slanted from the portrait side to the reverse, not perpendicular

Based on the data, I guess that the 16th century coins were rolled, stamped, and trimmed and the 17th century coins were stamped on pre-cut blanks.

Is this correct?

This guess comes an excellent refence "The Art and Craft of Coin Making" by Denis Cooper. The book is kind of hard to understand, but he says that the punches used to make planchets were conical in that the bottom was wider than the top, allowing the slanted edged blanks to drop from the punch instead having to be forced out.

Also, does anyone know why some of the coins, particularly the 2 taler are almost wavy?





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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 04/03/2021  10:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know the Leopold Thaler was a roller strike. I have owned several and they had to be flattened. They seem to always retain some form of bend.

Roller strikes were thinner (out of necessity) than later screw press strikes.

I always wondered just how they were able to engrave the reversed design on the rollers while maintaining the precise depth of the cut.
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2021  06:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am guessing: The roller die was hubbed by rolling over a flat master relief die.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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7940 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2021  07:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice study, thanks for sharing.

A minor (geometric) point is that if one angle is not perpendicular, then both are not perpendicular (one is obtuse, greater than 90o, and the other is acute, less than 90o by the same amount).

When you say "wavy," do you mean bent/curved (@swamperbob's comment), or more irregular?
I've got some smaller silver from the Hapsburg empire around the same time that's distinctly curved from the roller press (photo below is a 6 kreuzer Silesian coin minted in Olesnica). I am guessing there are several things that could contribute to a hammered coin being "wavy"
Small-Study-Of-And-Questions-About-Early-Talers

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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 04/04/2021  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a thought.

Roller dies came after hand hammered dies and before the advent of the screw press. (My belief - if incorrect please advise)

If hubbing was conceptually developed before the screw press was invented - why did it take until the last decade of the 18th century (1790s) to be used with essentially flat dies?

Also if hubbing was used for roller dies why don't we see evidence of that in the form of coins rolled from matching working dies with different unique cracking patterns?
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 Posted 04/05/2021  2:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks to everyone. Another question, could a precut blank be struck with roller presses?

TDZIEMIA, your point is well taken, and I did not properly explain the methodology.

Using Luneburg as an example.
Top to bottom measurement 41.27 mm
Left to right 40.70 mm
10 o'clock to 4 o'clock 41.08 mm
8 o'clock to 2 o'clock 41.09 mm
The greatest delta of perpendicular (+/- a couple degrees) measurements is noted. For this Luneburg coin I noted the variance as top to bottom 0.57 mm. More proper would be top to bottom vs. left to right.

As for wavy I am referring to the not flat surfaces as shown in the edge pictures of the Austria 2 Taler and the Hungary 1 taler.
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