Help Authenticating 1610 City Of Jülich Siege Money (8 Thaler)

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 2,218
bd251 Pillar of the Community United States 1842 Posts	Posted 04/18/2021 7:12 pm I recently acquired this coin. It had been misidentified and described as being "struck on lead." I've identified it as an 8 Thaler seige coin from the City of Jülich, KM# 22. I would like some opinions on authenticity. -Non-magnetic -Weight: 21.62g -Size: 32mm x 36mm (long side) -Density (Archimedes test): 10.76 g/cm3 It should be silver and 24.64g. I'm not sure what kind of weight range to expect for a coin like this so my though was that I could use the density to determine if it was likely lead or not. For reference silver is 10.5 and lead is 11.3 g/cm3. Copper is 8.9. I'm not very confident in the density measurement. I attempted the test several times but I was only able to get the scale to stabilize once for the submerged weight (2.01g). It was mostly fluctuating between 1.9 and 2.1g which puts it in the silver range and the lead range (10.30-11.38g/cm3). Compare to the picture on Numista https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces146872.html What do you think about this coin? Report this Post to the Staff

Spence Moderator United States 34423 Posts	Posted 04/18/2021 8:08 pm Not an expert in this area, but do you have access to XRF or some other non-destructive method for determining the metal alloy? "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb "The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz Report this Post to the Staff
bd251 Pillar of the Community United States 1842 Posts	Posted 04/18/2021 9:39 pm I can ask my LCS. Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7953 Posts	Posted 04/19/2021 07:34 am It appears that this item exists in both lead (2 thaler) and silver (8 thaler). https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2125248 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5447761 Unfortunately neither of these listed a size. Report this Post to the Staff
bd251 Pillar of the Community United States 1842 Posts	Posted 04/19/2021 12:40 pm Thank you! Finally a new lead. It seems that both of those links show a lead 8 thaler, no? Its also interesting that the picture in the first link is the same one used on Numista. Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7953 Posts	Posted 04/19/2021 9:05 pm I can find 3 sales of this type on acsearch. Two of them say it is made of lead (I doubt an auction house would get this wrong, as they must have resources to determine composition). Here is the one that calls it a lead 2 thaler: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=738296 So, I don't know what to make of it. Report this Post to the Staff
bd251 Pillar of the Community United States 1842 Posts	Posted 04/23/2021 12:26 pm That looks like the same coin that sold in 2014. Now it would seem that I need to find out if there are any known silver versions. The Standard Catalog of Word Coins list all the City of Jülich 1610 siege coins as silver, siting Hartwig Neumann, Die Jülicher Notklippen von 1543, 1610, 1721/22, Jülich, 1974. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 04/23/2021 10:10 pm From a standpoint of silver ores from Europe many of the mines were actually lead mines where silver was a byproduct. So an alloy of silver and lead is very likely. Report this Post to the Staff
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