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 Replies: 16 / Views: 3,257 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
Update: This is a normal "bold N" 1871 Here is the coin in question.At first the reverse appeared to be the 1871 shallow-N, but I spoke to someone who saw this coin and confirmed it's a normal bold N. I was fooled by the photos.  I'll just keep what I posted below since the shallow N diagnostics are correct--just not my conclusions on this coin. 
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I'm unfamiliar with the variety. Looked at with fresh eyes, based only on the evidence you've presented, I see a "normal" N variety. Neither the E nor the N seem to show the "shallow-N" features to me. The center serif on the E seems particularly obvious.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5318 Posts |
Ok, take my opinion with a grain of salt and compare the diagnostics I linked to. Something to note are the distances between top serifs in NE and NT in ONE CENT. Also the length of the top serif in N is diagnostic, as are the middle serifs in E. The lower corner of the N has a characteristic shape too. This is purely my opinion (but I stand by it)--check for yourself.   detail from auction; compare to above:  |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Wierd. I see a trumpet-shaped E serif, I see greater spacing between the N and E, and I see the larger bottom corner of the N. This one isn't even close, to my eyes. The vertical stroke of the N is also noticeably different between the two types; the ebay coin obviously has the thicker stroke. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
My '09 RedBook lists a modest premium for the shallow-N and PCGS' Price Guide lists this coin at $1,500. If this is a steal, does the seller not know what he's doing asking "only" $2.2K? Where does the $9K price from Rick Snow come from? Has this coin ever brought close to that at auction? The reason I asked is that, for a moderator to post this coin as a "steal", it should have some supporting evidence. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
I'm not trying to fool anybody either...I'm just sharing what I'm seeing. Sounds like you're convinced...that's ok. But the top serif distance between NE in ONE is too close to be a bold N. Granted, I'm really enlarging the pic here, but the transition on the middle E serif has an abrupt angle:  If it doesn't look legit, no biggie...I might just buy for resale to Mr. Snow. Quote:
Where does the $9K price from Rick Snow come from? Go over to his retail site (Eagle Eye Rare Coins), where he's selling the shallow-N in NGC MS65BN for $9K. Guys--I wouldn't say it w/o doing the research first. p.s: As I said before: "verify yourself". Moderators have opinions too--they're not exempt from judgment calls. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:
p.s: As I said before: "verify yourself". Moderators have opinions too--they're not exempt from judgment calls. I'm glad you pointed that out Kurt. I was beginning to think the New Year's Eve party had started very early! I've heard CCF Moderators are paid 6 figure salaries, so this coin would be steal from that perspective!  |
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Moderator
 United States
6563 Posts |
Yep! $000,000 is such a grand number
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
They just hand me those 100 Billion $ Zimbabwe notes. CC, ebay, and PayPal pitch in together and sweeten the deal.  |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
OK, in the inteest of matching anyone else here for anality, if not knowledge, I pulled all the images into the Gimp. I then regularized them, so the lettering was the same size in each, and proceeded to use the Gimp's measuring tool to see exactly what's what. Both types are very similar in most dimensions, and different enough in a few others to make identification possible. In all cases, the ebay coin was closer (given the relatively poor photo) to the "Shallow N" type than it was to the "Bold N" type. My guess, from the location of the date, is that this is Snow-5 rather than Snow-4. Using Snow's website examples, take the front edge of the neck as if it were a vertical, and follow that line thru the 1 in the date to see what I mean. Therefore, I concede this difference of opinion to Kurt. He was right; I was wrong. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
Dave, I'll be willing to concede to you too, if this proves to be the "bold N" after all.  I'm shooting it past Rick Snow. The reverse appears to be shallow N to my eyes, but: the real problem I have here is the obverse, which doesn't exactly match either known die. Update I'm now unsure about this one because the reverse looks Shallow N, but the obverse digit spacing/position doesn't match the 2 known dies. There is a very good die-struck shallow N forgery, so I'm very wary now. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Wow this is getting deep! I'm mainly a Lincoln Cent and bullion guy, so this is a learning experience. Thanks to our moderators for the fine job they do! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
Ok, one last update! I just spoke with a guy who actually saw this coin in person at a show. It's the normal bold N--and I concede to Dave, he won! The photo sure had me going... |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
This begs the question, "How many reverse dies are known for this coin?" Even correcting for the tilt of the photo, there are discrepancies with the measurements. I suppose we can chalk that up to the problematic photo, which makes this an even stronger learning experience, especially for people like me who consider ourselves fairly capable with photographic evaluations.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
I hear ya--I'm still a bit perplexed by this one too--and regard it as something worth learning. As far as I know, there are only two reverse die types for this year--but I'm going to watch for these as there's that one forgery. Here's a photo of the shallow N forgery:  Rick Snow's comments: This is a Shallow N counterfeit which would fool just about anyone! The obverse shows light die cracks around the tops of most of the letters.
The reverse shows a radial die crack from the rim at 1:30 to the top of the E in ONE. There is a mark on the neck that may be a defect from the original coin and may be a diagnostic for this counterfeit. |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
If I'm reading Rick Snow's photos right, the location of the date is a dead giveaway, not even close. Otherwise, that's a superb forgery.
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Replies: 16 / Views: 3,257 |
Posted 12/31/2008 8:59 pm
