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After Reading Topics And Posts About TPG's I Leave The Forum Depressed?

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Pillar of the Community

United States
984 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2021  3:22 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add grospoisson to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Trying to absorb as much info as possible, I leave the forum more depressed than ever. It seems all I see about copper coins (early wheats) is that they come back cleaned, artificially toned, questionable color or some type of problem from PCGS OR NGC. Maybe someone on here can help me with this. I would love to see pictures in color of as many types of Lincolns that have questionable color. PCGS has a color guide of ms-60 to ms-68 grades and I have seen the color chart of the progression of copper that is toning. It would be great to have a compare and contrast image of acceptable copper tones. I live where there is high humidity and hot temperatures. I see common copper change that turns every color imaginable ( no reason to try to change colors on these)! any suggestions or help would be awesome.
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hokiefan_82's Avatar
United States
3641 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2021  5:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hokiefan_82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I often see TPG straight-graded LWC and Indian cents that have very vivid toning - electric blues and magenta colors are fairly common. I don't know what goes into the TPG companies' determination whether a coin has been artificially toned; I'm sure others more knowledgable than I will chime in.

Just a suggestion on storage of coins in an environment as you describe. I bought an inexpensive dehumidifier I use in the small safe room where I store my coins (I just have to empty the tank once a week or so), and I store everything in Intercept Shield boxes which reduces air circulation and provide protection if there are contaminants in the air. I've not noticed any change in toning of any of my silver or copper coins, TPG holdered or raw, in the 15 years or so I've been doing this.
Member of SPMC, FCCB, ANA and ANS.
My U.S. Classic Commemorative Complete Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/278741/
My U.S. Fractional Note Set: https://notes.www.collectors-societ...eSetID=34188
Bedrock of the Community
sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 08/16/2021  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is essential that you learn to grade coins accurately for yourself.
Decades of experience is your best friend when it comes to coin grading.
My collection is valued in the $ten s of thousands and
none of my coins are slabbed.

If you don't have the confidence or there is a lack of experience, or if you are just a learner (as I once was) don't buy highly valuable coins, unless you are certain about the professionalism of the seller.
A case in point:
My avatar coin was the first Greek coin I acquired. It came from one of the World's most respected coin dealers in London. There was no need for it to be slabbed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
984 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2021  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add grospoisson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am not buying high value coins or what I consider to be high value. There are so many coins of questionable color. I wish I could find a book of most types of altered Lincolns and what's the obvious clue I am missing. What constitutes a weak strike and pictures to go with it. Is it possible PCGS and NGC would prefer you to send in coins instead of recognizing less obvious altered coins on your own. I often hear that it takes looking at thousands of coins before you get the feel of what they should look like. I call B.S pictures would shorten the learning curve in my opinion. WHAT SAY YOU?
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2021  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Spending half an hour or more with Google Images is a good starting point for searching at what counterfeit fake and altered coins may appear to be.

Same applies at what cleaning and toning in their various guises may appear to be, and would give you some idea of how they may interfere with grading, when looking at on screen pictures.

When collecting Wheats for example, get yourself a good range of common coins with a wide range of toning characteristics and wear grades,
so that you can closely examine each coin for yourself, in hand, under high magnification, in good lighting conditions,
just like the Third Party Graders do.

All of the coins needed for a Wheat self education collection can be obtained from lowest cost dealers' junk boxes.

It will cost you a bare minimum outlay, but the the self education you gain, will be huge return in many multiples of the outlay.
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KenKat's Avatar
United States
4085 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2021  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I really do think experience is going to be the best teacher ultimately. It takes awhile to look through thousands of coins but that's honestly what I did in building out my Lincoln collection.

There's always the dreaded concern of having a TPG problem coin but I try not to get too hung up on it as I mostly have raw coins in my collection and focus more on eye appeal than ultimately what someone else thinks of it. I do try to understand what it is I am buying and have learned the following about the various problems you identified:

cleaned - first and foremost with higher end copper is luster; cleaning usually kills luster so I like to see some luster on higher grade Lincolns. I also am skeptical of uniformity of toning - not that it doesn't happen but some variability is to be expected and says "this is natural"
artificially toned - kind of to the above, any type of wild blue or purple uniform toning is a point of suspicion for me. Again, it's possible but in my experience not how most copper coins tend to tone
questionable color - this is a tricky one but the typically progression of copper (Lincolns is what I am most familiar with) is from bright red to deep red to red with brown overtones to mostly brown with a hit of red to brown. I can't really describe questionable color but it tends to stick out when you look at a group of coins
some type of problem - some of the other problems can be a mystery. My 1913-S Lincoln was cracked out of a PCGS slabbed marked "Smoothed". I am not sure what that even means but I was happy to take the coin at a big discount and put it into my Dansco. It is a nice looking coin. I'd go back to eye appeal on some of these ultimately.

I think for most collectors with a modest to moderate budget, sometimes compromises might have to be made to complete a collection. Coins with small imperfections but good eye appeal can have a place in a collection when you are on a budget. I know some would disagree and say save up until you can afford problem free for everything but I go more for mostly problem free
Pillar of the Community
United States
984 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2021  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add grospoisson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To KenKat most helpful so far especially the uneven toning section. This was one of my most problematic concerns. I will be posting pictures soon and hope for more experienced collectors to weigh in. I want to get every Lincoln in a slab, whether it be NGC, PCGS anacs,icg or even pci. I think this will hopefully verify that they are original
Pillar of the Community
KenKat's Avatar
United States
4085 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2021  5:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Glad to help, welcome to the forum!
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