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1559 Switzerland Thaler - Presumed Fake

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tropicalbats's Avatar
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 Posted 10/30/2021  10:58 pm Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I really don't know what I'm talking about with that title, but that's more or less what's on the paper that came with this coin. I assume it is some kind of counterfeit, but am looking for details as to what it is, when it was made, and anything else an expert might be able to add. I bought it for my counterfeit collection but can't find any details to be able to give it some kind of label.

Thanks for any help in identifying it.

Medal alignment, 23.30g, plain edge

Paper listed it as:

Switzerland - Zurich
1 1/2 Thaler
1559
DAV#8781
[different handwriting] counterfeit



1559-Switzerland-Thaler---Presumed-Fake
1559-Switzerland-Thaler---Presumed-Fake
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John1's Avatar
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56855 Posts
 Posted 10/31/2021  04:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did you look here? There is a bit of info https://en.numista.com/catalogue/in...=&mt=&g=&se=
John1
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oriole's Avatar
Canada
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 Posted 10/31/2021  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A real one would weigh twice that. I could not find any 3/4 thaler coins. That being said I do not have a picture of a real one.
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 10/31/2021  7:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not my area, but I don't see any signs of casting. If genuine a nice looking coin.
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 Posted 10/31/2021  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, and it is a nice-looking coin. But like the others, I can't find anything that looks like this. There are coins with this obverse, and with this reverse, but not on the same coin. And then there is the weight, which seems totally odd. So who counterfeits a coin that doesn't exist? Thanks for the link, John, as I hadn't seen that page in my research on this thing.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 10/31/2021  10:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Search under Dav. 8782 and you will find this coin.

I can find two die varieties, one of which is yours.

Of course, that doesn;t rule out its being a fake, but you would at least have a lot of company
Edited by tdziemia
10/31/2021 11:04 pm
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 Posted 10/31/2021  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Help me out just a little more please. I tried that on this forum and on full internet search. Can't come up with that number on a coin. Wikifacts doesn't list it and can't get any hits. Out of my zone here so maybe a link?
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 11/01/2021  07:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With a little more digging ...

Here is a link where a coin that matches yours is called a Lauer counterfeit. I am not sure if this is the same Lauer as the family of Lauer in Nuremburg who was known for making tokens around the same time, but probably so.
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3266031

In my opinion,these are also Lauer counterfeits:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3251429
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=567961

Which probably makes these the real coin:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7744946
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6120580

I am not an expert on thalers, or on this coin, but if you start from the statement by the Rauch auction house about the Lauer fakes, then you can easily find more coins that match the Lauer fakes in the auction listing, and then find some examples that look different in several ways.
If I am right, it means that PCGS and some auction houses of high repute were not able to identify the counterfeit as such.
But we have been told on CCF that this is also the case with Spanish colonial counterfeits, so that would not be a big surprise.

One thing I found interesting is that none of the auction listings for this coin give the weight. This struck me as fishy. We know thalers should be around 28 g., which makes yours suspicious from the get-go.


Edited by tdziemia
11/01/2021 09:06 am
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 Posted 11/02/2021  12:47 am  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you so much for that, as it seems to have been the answer. I followed your research, and after realizing that using the word "restrike" would get me where I wanted as well, learned a fair bit. So, to the best of my knowledge and based on an educated seller's listing, I think this is best labeled as Scheiz-Zurich Thaler 1559 Restrike by Lauer 19th Century. 23.3g.

I found a bit that noted these were made of white metal, not silver, and most of the ones I found came in pretty close in weight to the one I have. Also, along with a perfect die match to the Lauer restrikes, I learned that they actually came as jewelry, not a coin. That means they all originally had a clasp at 12:00, and sure enough, looking at the edge of my "coin" I found remnants of a clasp that had been sanded or filed off but still quite obvious.

So I think that closes the door on this one, which based on the one sale I could find with it correctly listed as a restrike makes it about a $40 item, and perfect for my counterfeit collection.

Thanks to all who commented and especially tdziemia for such valuable help.

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