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Chemistry Of "Jungle Toned" Cash Coins

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Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 02/13/2009  10:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A while back I bought a few Vietnamese cash coins from a dealer's junk box. They all were greenish and had larger lumps of what appeared to be verdigris on their surfaces. I put them in acetone for a few weeks, and I just now checked them. I really thought that the acetone wouldn't do much for verdigris. TO my surprise, the coins have turned a bright red color. And with a little rubbing on paper towels, the red covering really just wore off. So why did this happen? I thought that acetone only dissolved plastics. So what does this mean of the "jungle toning" of this sort of cash coin? Are they not merely covered in a thin layer of verdigris?
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snowman's Avatar
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1840 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2009  07:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know that these coins were often buried in large quantities. Could any of the "verdigris" be dirt and debris from where they were buried? That could explain why it is coming off the coins so easy. Do the coins show any pitting associated with corrosion?

The red toning shouldn't be too surprising if these coins are brass. I've seen brass coins initially tone a reddish color before becoming darker.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16826 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2009  10:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Firstly, two weeks in acetone is about two weeks too long - if it doesn't come off after just a few minutes (an hour at most), it ain't gonna come off in acetone. The only negative side-effects I've heard about acetone have come from people soaking bright copper coins for prolonged periods in bright light.

As for what's happening - I don't know. Acetone dissolves anything organic - that's "organic" in the chemical sense, not in the "pesticide-free-food" sense. So if the dirt the coins were buried in was high in organics - such as decaying plant matter, acetone might have an effect. But I can't say I've heard of this happening.

It's also possible you've got a case of "fake patina" - if the locals want to give a fake or overcleaned coin that authentic jungle look, they'll take some old green copper, crush it up, add some glue or resin and paint it on the coins. Acetone will strip fake patina right off, but should leave authentic patina alone.

What's actually happened to the green stuff that used to be there? Has it dissolved away, changed colour into the red stuff, or simply fallen off?
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Archraz's Avatar
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 Posted 02/14/2009  12:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap- Thanks for the response. Honestly, The coin does show some pitting where some of the verdigris was a bit more developed. I'm rather certain that this coin is authentic since there is some pitting where the corrosion was once located. The red coloring I think is merely the greenish color affected by acetone. The red patina was still pretty well cemented to the coin after the soak. I then rubbed it with a cloth to see if some of the verdigris would peel off, and I found that most of the red coloring rubbed off to reveal brownish bronze surfaces in areas where there was not a heavy buildup of green corrosion.
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sfwusc's Avatar
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615 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2009  12:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sfwusc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I always wonder why people use acetone as it is somewhat polar. I would think diethyl ether would be better as it is one of the best non polar solvents. Water being the best polar one. If it doesn't dissolve in one of those, then it isn't going to dissolve off the coin. If you go to a pharmacy then I think you can get diethyl ether... you might have to tell him what you are doing though. Otherwise he might think you are running a chemistry lab in your house :). Also, be careful with it as it has a low boiling point (i have had to fly out of a test tube more than once)

-SWUSC
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desertgem's Avatar
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860 Posts
 Posted 02/14/2009  3:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add desertgem to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Also due to its reputation in production of illicit drugs, one might get an interview from certain agencies! I used to use it for various things until it got impossible to obtain even for colleges without significant documentation.

Sfwusc did you ever have a can go peroxide and blow? WOW!! Of course there was little in it, and we got a new explosion proof refrigerator for the lab....but still! Scary stuff!

Jim
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 Posted 02/14/2009  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

It's also possible you've got a case of "fake patina" - if the locals want to give a fake or overcleaned coin that authentic jungle look, they'll take some old green copper, crush it up, add some glue or resin and paint it on the coins. Acetone will strip fake patina right off, but should leave authentic patina alone.


I suspect that this is what was on the coin too. Many people have done things like this to make many metalic objects appear as an antique. I know I once purchased an metallic oil lamp that appeared to be really, really old with all kinds of such greenish, blackish discolorations. On a closer inspection at home I found, almost gone from the stuff, a notation that said "Made In China"
And as to Acetone in the sun effects. I saw that post some time ago. I experimented by putting numerous coins in Acetone and placing in a darkened garage. Nothing happened. Then moved the jar into the Sun for many days. Still nothing. After weeks of soaking those coins, none were effected except a dime did look newer. I don't know who or why someone made that web site about that but it was a joke. Acetone in the Sun is just Acetone in the Sun. Has no effect on Copper. Of course if left in for several hundred years there may be some effects.
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Archraz's Avatar
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3499 Posts
 Posted 02/16/2009  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap- well the green patina didn't merely fall off. It turned a brownish-red color, but only after the two weeks. I checked it after one week and it still was greenish. Only after removing it after two weeks and rubbing it with a cloth did the now red patina wear off. Is it possible that this red coloring was just dissolving organic encrustation?
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