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New Rules Regarding Gold Sales In Australia

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Valued Member
projack's Avatar
Australia
122 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2009  02:05 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add projack to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I am currently oversees and wanted to buy a Six Coin Gold Proof Set from a Sydney dealer and send the coins to my mothers place in Brisbane. After transferring the money to the dealer I have received this email from the coin dealer.
Anyone knows about this new law? I am very disappointed not to able to complete this deal. Is there any way I can do this transaction? By the way I think the dealer wants to back off from this sell.

Hi Peter,

We will have to refund the money, and will this m0rning.
There has been a few problems.
I can forward links to new laws in Australia regarding gold sales.
Basically, we now (by law) need for any customer to come into our shop in person, and fill out a form, we need to sight 100 points of ID, and register the customers name.
We then can sell gold (if its pure).
Next purchase that customer doesn't need to come to the store as we have them on file. If ASIC decides they can then come to us and obtain any record of gold purchases from us.
Its been very hard to deal with as I'm sure you understand we mainly deal in gold, and as such are losing a lot of customers already (this just happened.
We are having a meeting with ASIC shortly, and trying to resolve the issues - but it doesn't look good. The fines are quite hefty also.

I wanted to call reallyt as its complicated, but maybe this explains it all.

If you want a copy of the new rules, I'm happy to forward.

Also please let me know bank details and Ill get the funds back ASAP.

Sorry about that, I hoped we could have sorted it.

Sincere regards,

Pillar of the Community
Australia
1040 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2009  04:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add latman100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is the first I have heard of it. I just tried to buy gold online at a couple of places within Australia, and both sites were more than willing to take my money and send the gold to me, no ID checks.
Valued Member
projack's Avatar
Australia
122 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2009  04:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add projack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just found; Bron Suckecki blogged on it a couple of times. The last one was a brief update. Don't know if that still applies.
http://goldchat.blogspot.com/search...20Laundering
Edited by projack
02/18/2009 04:57 am
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23478 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2009  07:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I purchase gold on a regular basis from Australia
I obtain it from
The mint
coin shops
individuals
ebay
I have no difficulty doing so.

Sometimes people do not read the rules
This may include the shop you are dealing with.
http://www.austrac.gov.au/files/gn0...finition.pdf


Quote:
AUSTRAC guidance note 09/01 - Definition of 'bullion' under the AML/CTF Act
February 2009



Quote:
Definition of 'bullion' under the AML/CTF Act
Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Act 2006


1 Introduction

1.1 The Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Act 2006 (AML/CTF Act) is designed to assist in combating money laundering and the financing of terrorism. To achieve these aims, the AML/CTF Act places certain obligations on entities known as 'reporting entities' that provide 'designated services' (both defined in section 5 of the AML/CTF Act).
1.2 The tables in section 6 of the AML/CTF Act describe a range of activities which constitute the provision of 'designated services'. Designated services include buying or selling bullion in the course of carrying on a business. These are items 1 and 2 in table 2 set out in subsection 6(3) of the AML/CTF Act.
1.3 This guidance note provides assistance on what AUSTRAC considers is 'bullion' for the purposes of the AML/CTF Act.

2 Definition of 'bullion' under AML/CTF Act

2.1 The AML/CTF Act provides the following definition of 'bullion':
bullion includes anything that, under the regulations, is taken to be bullion for the purposes of this Act.
2.2 The Replacement Explanatory Memorandum for the Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Bill 2006 states that:
bullion includes anything, that under the regulations, is taken to be bullion for the purposes of the Bill. The term bullion therefore has its ordinary meaning and the words is taken to be are intended to extend the ordinary meaning. The definition is not affected by any other definition in the Bill.
2.3 No regulations have been made extending the meaning of 'bullion'. The term therefore retains its ordinary meaning.

3 Dictionary definitions of 'bullion'

3.1 The Macquarie Dictionary Online defines 'bullion' as being:
1. gold or silver in the mass. 2. gold or silver in the form of bars or ingots.
The Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary (2nd edition, 1992) states that 'bullion' is:
a metal (especially gold or silver) in bulk before coining, or valued by weight.
3.2 AUSTRAC considers the adoption of a 'popular' definition, such as those in the Macquarie and Oxford dictionaries, potentially problematic. The two dictionary definitions referred to are not consistent in the range of metals encapsulated by the term 'bullion' as used in the metal refining and distribution industry and do not encapsulate key elements found in commercial use of the term. It is AUSTRAC's view that the term is used in a commercial context in the AML/CTF Act.

4 Other definitions of 'bullion'

4.1 Australian courts have given little consideration to the term 'bullion' and what consideration has been given is passing at best.
4.2 A variety of market exchanges dealing in gold, silver and other precious metals have working definitions of 'bullion' tailored to their specific needs. Their definitions are restricted to the types of metals (e.g. gold or silver) traded on those exchanges, often with a requirement for specific grades of fineness and 'marking' (a mark of authenticity applied by an approved manufacturer by way of steel punches or laser marking). Although there are a number of countries which are parties to the Vienna Convention on the control of the fineness and the hallmarking of precious metal objects, there is no uniform international hallmarking system in place to equivalently compare fineness and stamping between various markets, especially those which are not parties to the Vienna Convention.
4.3 However, some key features common to each of these definitions can be distilled, including that 'bullion' refers to a substance that is:
(a) principally composed of a small range of precious metals, being generally gold, silver or platinum
(b) held or traded for primarily investment purposes
(c) valued principally by reference to the quality (or fineness) and market price of the constituent metal which is authenticated by either hallmarking, stamping or the form of the item (e.g. for coins); and
(d) often in standardised forms and sizes.
4.4 It is clear that some items would not be 'bullion' on any of the definitions. These include:
(a) collectable or proof coins which are traded based on their numismatic, commemorative or rarity value
(b) dore, which is insufficiently refined to constitute 'bullion'
(c) other 'platinum group metals' such as iridium, rhodium, osmium and ruthenium which are principally traded for their industrial value.

5 AUSTRAC's view - definition of 'bullion' for the purposes of the Financial Transaction Reports Act 1988 (FTR Act)

5.1 'Bullion' is not defined under the FTR Act. 'Bullion seller' is defined as meaning 'a person who carries on a business of selling bullion.'
5.2 In November 1997, AUSTRAC released AUSTRAC Guideline No. 7 - Bullion Sellers (formerly 'CTRA Guideline No.7') which provided the following definition of 'bullion':
Gold, silver, platinum group metals in the form of bars or ingots, granules of 24 carat, and bullion coins which does not include collector coins or proof coins.
"Collector coins" is a term deriving its ordinary commercial meaning.
"Proof coins" is a term deriving its ordinary commercial meaning.
"Bullion coins" is a term meaning coins of a precious metal purity of .9166 or above.
Bullion coins such as Krugerrands, Australian Gold Nugget coins*, Australian Koala coins*, Australian Kookaburra coins*, American Eagles, Canadian Maples, 'Taels' (Chinese ingots) which are tradable and bought and sold on the basis of quality, quantity and market price, are considered to be bullion.
*These coins may also be regarded as collector coins.
5.3 It is noted that 'platinum group metals' comprise platinum, palladium, iridium, rhodium, osmium and ruthenium.
5.4 It is AUSTRAC's understanding that this definition of 'bullion' is currently being used by industry on an informal basis.

6 Consideration of AUSTRAC Guideline No. 7 definition

6.1 AUSTRAC considers that the AUSTRAC Guideline No. 7 definition provides a sound base for the formulation of a definition specifically for the purposes of the AML/CTF Act, as:
(a) the definition has been in use since 1997 and as a result it has provided continuity and certainty for industry
(b) the definition excludes 'collector' and 'proof' coins which is in keeping with the accepted industry understanding of 'bullion'.
6.2 AUSTRAC considers that re-wording of the definition of 'bullion' provided by AUSTRAC in Guideline No. 7 would assist industry understand the extent of the designated services set out in table 2 in subsection 6(3) of the AML/CTF Act.

7 Definition of 'bullion' for the purposes of the AML/CTF Act

7.1 AUSTRAC considers that the following definition of 'bullion' is appropriate for the purposes of the AML/CTF Act:
'Bullion' means gold, silver, platinum or palladium authenticated to a specified fineness in the form of:
(a) bars, ingots, plates, wafers or other similar mass form; or
(b) coins

which trade at a price determined by reference to the market value of the constituent metal and the authenticated fineness of the item.
'authentication of fineness' means commercially acceptable hallmark or stamping, or by means of the base form of an item, such as in the case of coins. AUSTRAC guidance note 09/01 - Definition of 'bullion' under the AML/CTF Act February 2009, original issue (v1), Page 4 of 4
2 AUSTRAC considers that collector, proof or other coins which are traded on the basis of their numismatic, commemorative or rarity value are not bullion.
7.3 Granules have not been included as by definition granules are incapable of bearing a means of authentication as to fineness.
7.4 Other platinum group metals (besides platinum and palladium) comprising iridium, rhodium, osmium and ruthenium have not been included in the definition, as these metals are predominantly used for industrial purposes, rather than for trade-based investments.
7.5 AUSTRAC considers that it is the authentication of fineness (also known in the industry as 'assaying') and not the level of that fineness that defines 'bullion'; and does not consider than an ordinary meaning of 'bullion' should specify a minimum fineness. This is both because to do so is to arbitrarily tie the meaning of 'bullion' to that of a particular commodity exchange and because the level of fineness to which an item is authenticated is a commercial matter.
7.6 AUSTRAC considers it is unlikely that, whether by stamping or hallmarking, fineness of less than approximately .9166 (equal to 22 carat gold) will be authenticated or assayed, but this is a commercial matter which may vary over time.
Further information
AUSTRAC officers are able to assist reporting entities, their staff and the public in providing general information relating to the AML/CTF Act. Enquiries can be directed to the AUSTRAC Help Desk via:

• email to help_desk@austrac.gov.au

• telephone 02 9950 0827 or 1300 021 037 (a local call within Australia).

The information contained in this document is intended only to provide a summary and general overview on these matters. It is not intended to be comprehensive. It does not constitute, nor should it be treated as, legal advice or opinions. This document may contain statements of policy which reflect AUSTRAC's administration of the legislation in carrying out its statutory functions. The Commonwealth accepts no liability for any loss suffered as a result of reliance on this publication. AUSTRAC recommends that independent professional advice be sought.
The information contained herein is current as at the date of this document.
Reporting entities should note that in relation to activities they undertake to comply with the AML/CTF Act, they will have obligations under the Privacy Act 1988, including the requirement to comply with the National Privacy Principles, even if they would otherwise be exempt from the Privacy Act. For further information about these obligations, please go to http://www.privacy.gov.au or call 1300 363 992.
February 2009

Valued Member
projack's Avatar
Australia
122 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2009  08:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add projack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks a lot.
Valued Member
projack's Avatar
Australia
122 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2009  05:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add projack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bitter experience with a large dealer in Sydney
I'm posting my corespondents with Jaggards here because this gold set is still listed for sale for the same price, http://www.jaggards.com.au/shop/vie...ategoryid=66
but they don't want to sell it. So be aware with them.

February 04, 2009
I had an order for the 2005 Six Coin Gold Proof Set on the weekend.
I was waiting for email conformation before payment



February 6, 2009
Yes thats fine. you can fax or email me the details, or I can call.Thanks,Ari



February 6, 2009
I want to make a direct transfer to your account for the amount of $4510.
Please confirm your account details.
The Delivery address is: X. Y. W Street Qld.
Regards Peter


February 11, 2009,
Hi Peter, JAGGARDS PTY LTD.BSB 032002Account # 160661 Thanks,Ari



February 16, 2009
Hi Ari Still have not received any contact or confirmation since the $4510.00 has been transferred to your account last Thursday. Please do send me a conformation email. Regards Peter


February 16, 2009
Hi Peter,Can you email me your phone number and a good time to call? Ari



February 17, 2009
Hi Ari, I don't quite understand what else you want to talk about after the deal is done, but you have not contacted me yesterday anyway.
Since we made a deal with a very serious amount of money, I did confirm, this deal twice with you before I did transfer any money to your account. Once with the actual sell and price of the coins, and once again with your account details.
After this I expecting postal delivery of the coins to the address: X.Y. W Street Qld.
The bank confirmed me that you have received the money, so the only thing left from you part is to advise me of the time of postage, and the registration number of the delivery.
Regards Peter


February 18, 2009,
Hi Peter, We will have to refund the money, and will this m0rning. There has been a few problems. I can forward links to new laws in Australia regarding gold sales.Basically, we now (by law) need for any customer to come into our shop in person, and fill out a form, we need to sight 100 points of ID, and register the customers name.We then can sell gold (if its pure).Next purchase that customer doesn't need to come to the store as we have them on file. If ASIC decides they can then come to us and obtain any record of gold purchases from us.Its been very hard to deal with as I'm sure you understand we mainly deal in gold, and as such are losing a lot of customers already (this just happened.We are having a meeting with ASIC shortly, and trying to resolve the issues - but it doesn't look good. The fines are quite hefty also. I wanted to call reallyt as its complicated, but maybe this explains it all. If you want a copy of the new rules, I'm happy to forward. Also please let me know bank details and Ill get the funds back ASAP. Sorry about that, I hoped we could have sorted it. Sincere regards, Ari


February 18, 2009
Thanks for you quick replay.
I think we can resolve this problem very easily.
Let me suggest only the 2 most practical way doing it.
1; You can sell me the set broken up so each transaction would be under the reporting level.
2; Since the transfer coming from my mothers account who is also the delivery address, she can send you a certified copy of the 100 point check by mail.
Hope this will satisfy your legal requirements. Let me know which one you like.

I haven't herd from this new law, only found the current sales requirements on the Perth Mint website copied below. Also did some enquire from various numismatic clubs and no one had any problems.

This is from the Perth Mint website:
http://www.perthmint.com.au/metalpri...selling. aspx
BUYING: or SELLING:
All transactions of $10,000 or more will require an AUSTRAC 100 Point Check form to be completed. A current driver's licence and birth certificate/passport is sufficient to fulfil this one-off requirement. We require certified copies of these documents for clients who conduct transactions over the telephone.

Also here is the revellent law

7 Definition of 'bullion' for the purposes of the AML/CTF Act

7.1 AUSTRAC considers that the following definition of 'bullion' is appropriate for the purposes of the AML/CTF Act:
'Bullion' means gold, silver, platinum or palladium authenticated to a specified fineness in the form of:
(a) bars, ingots, plates, wafers or other similar mass form; or
(b) coins
which trade at a price determined by reference to the market value of the constituent metal and the authenticated fineness of the item.
'authentication of fineness' means commercially acceptable hallmark or stamping, or by means of the base form of an item, such as in the case of coins. AUSTRAC guidance note 09/01 - Definition of 'bullion' under the AML/CTF Act February 2009, original issue (v1), Page 4 of 4
2 AUSTRAC considers that collector, proof or other coins which are traded on the basis of their numismatic, commemorative or rarity value are not bullion.
Regards Peter


February 19, 2009
Can you please respond to my emails so we can resolve this issue ASAP.
Sine I made so much enquirers, and even forwarded the relevant law, seem to me we are able to go ahead with the deal, and even friends offering personal assistance in Sydney as the last resort to help me out.
Regards Peter



February 20, 2009
Hi Peter,I have spoken to my Boss, and at this stage we prefer to refund. Please provide bank details or I can send a cheque to you.Sorry and best regards,Ari

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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23478 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2009  08:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
JAGGARDS PTY LTD
is a well known dealer
but if they are going to play that way I would take my money and spend it with someone else.

It certainly does not help their reputation by having the world see how they treated you by posting this on the net.

I have purchased from them previously, but with this type of situation evolving
I would be leary of purchasing from them again!

and for the last few months I have been in gold buying mood
I have had no problems with purchases from the Mint or three other dealers in Australia.

I hope you can find the same set again for the same price.

Have you checked with Shane (Bigfella - Newcastle coins)or Glenn just down the street from him (Hutchco) or Andrew Crellin at Sterling or Peter Strich Stamps & Coins?
good luck


rggoodie
aka Richard
"catch em doing something right"
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