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Same Coin Submitted To PCGS 5 Months Apart (Trueview? I Think Not)

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United States
24 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2022  3:00 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Kwang to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Is PCGS manipulating the TrueView photos to justify their lower grade?

What are your thoughts on these 2 coins and their TrueView photos?

They did NOT receive the same grade.


Same-Coin-Submitted-To-PCGS-5-Months-Apart-Trueview?-I-Think-Not
Same-Coin-Submitted-To-PCGS-5-Months-Apart-Trueview?-I-Think-Not
Edited by Kwang
10/24/2022 3:01 pm
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CarrsCoins's Avatar
United States
756 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2022  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
they take a bunch of photos of each coin. you can contact them and have a different image used as the trueview picture.

its probably just graded by a different group of graders and photographed by two different photographers. they are humans, not robots. sometimes one of the graders got married the night before and sometimes they got served with divorce papers right before grading a coin. we all have good days and bad days. its not malicious.
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westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2022  5:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Far as I know Phil Arnold is still the head photographer at PCGS, they do have others that work under him. He does most of the True View shoots. He does take multiple sets of the image (especially with proofs) and looks can vary even in the same shoot.

As an ex-professional photographer myself I can say I can make a coin look very different with just a slight movement of the lighting, if the camera is changed at all, or lens or lighting (in any way even slightly) looks and appearance can most assuredly change like the coin photos you show. It's not on purpose, but there is no way to have the exact consistency from photo shoot to photo shoot. I can tell the coin is the same in all the photos, but it's still art and interpretation in shooting coins, as much as we (and likely PCGS photo team) would like to make every shoot the same, from coin to coin, it's just not realistic.Heritage Auctions has a neat set up with fixed cameras for gold, silver and copper coins in the coin photo room all having similar lighting that doesn't change, yet I can find the same coin they have sold and photographed looking different quite easily on their website, same goes for Stack's/Bowers, Goldberg Auctions, etc.

Just to see what Heritage's photo stations look like with the fixed cameras, lenses, and controlled lighting, see this old behind the scenes at Heritage post I did back in 2015. (Note Heritage has moved into a new building and offices since then).

http://goccf.com/t/228287

I will say I am amazed just how consistent Heritage photography of coins is though, best in the industry for that alone.

Lyle at Goldberg's is probably my favorite shooter for catalogs. Not a huge fan of the images at True View though some are wonderful others I just shake my head at.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
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Edited by westcoin
10/24/2022 5:31 pm
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jbuck's Avatar
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187950 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2022  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting. I can certainly understand the photos being different and depending on the time between grading, I might actually be surprised if it graded the same due to changing standards.
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 Posted 10/24/2022  5:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add halfamind to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice synopsis, @westcoin. Thanks!
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Coinfrog's Avatar
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 Posted 10/24/2022  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Indeed, thanks very much for that.
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Parklane64's Avatar
United States
2668 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2022  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Parklane64 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm getting old enough that the same picture will look different to my eyes...
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westcoin's Avatar
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 Posted 10/24/2022  10:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm getting old enough that the same picture will look different to my eyes...


True that Parklane! I just had my eyesight checked and am going to need some big change on one eye in my next glasses it's a full diopter different than last time I had it checked. Getting older isn't much fun on the body.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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nickelsearcher's Avatar
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15400 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2022  05:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent reply westcoin - thank you for those insights.
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
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panzaldi's Avatar
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18649 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2022  09:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
never use TV to grade a coin. it rarely is an accurate representation of the coin. I dont want to upset anyone but I dont know why people pay for this as it doesn't add anything to the coins value. I guess it looks nice. anytime I grade a coin by TV photos I almost always drop the grade by 1 full point. just looking at these photos i'd say the one on the left would be about MS65 and the right one MS66. both are wide rim which is a bonus. I like the color of the one on the right but again you can never tell if any of the photos are accurate especially color
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 10/25/2022  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can appreciate having the TrueView images available for verification purposes during a potential purchase.
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BadThad's Avatar
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19935 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2022  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As an ex-professional photographer myself I can say I can make a coin look very different with just a slight movement of the lighting, if the camera is changed at all, or lens or lighting (in any way even slightly) looks and appearance can most assuredly change like the coin photos you show.


I do it in every picture post - dang near. It takes practice - but it's easy capture the look of a coin with lighting and camera alone.

Example:




Same-Coin-Submitted-To-PCGS-5-Months-Apart-Trueview?-I-Think-Not
Same-Coin-Submitted-To-PCGS-5-Months-Apart-Trueview?-I-Think-Not
Same-Coin-Submitted-To-PCGS-5-Months-Apart-Trueview?-I-Think-Not
Same-Coin-Submitted-To-PCGS-5-Months-Apart-Trueview?-I-Think-Not
Same-Coin-Submitted-To-PCGS-5-Months-Apart-Trueview?-I-Think-Not
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Edited by BadThad
10/25/2022 7:41 pm
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