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I've been reading bits and pieces of information about them. I ran across a great Spanish numismatic website in the process. Here is a florin-related investigation as a sample of their content. https://wearenumismatics.com/estudi...en-valencia/In gathering this information, I'm finding that Aragon florins are relatively abundant, while the Italian, Dutch and Hungarian florins are relatively scarce. Any particular reason? I'm also having trouble sorting out the mintmarks of the various Aragon issues. Any good references? Finally, I'm not finding many florin-related threads on the Coin Community site. Maybe I'm missing something. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/06/2023 09:52 am
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Pillar of the Community
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7273 Posts |
I would collect gold Florins but gold coins aren't cheap and then you have a significant numismatic value due to the age/condition so if you are a stacker the premium is very high and if you can afford it the appeal maybe limited compared to pre 1933 US gold note. Hence why there aren't many threads on these (cost and limited collector market).
But if you get any would love to see them.
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Pillar of the Community
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3342 Posts |
hfjacinto in general I search for both value and history. The prices of US coins that interest me have been driven up so high that I started looking at early Europeans, Spanish colonials and ancients again. In particular, I've seen some values in Colombian Republic and Mexican revolutionary pieces. In the process I've learned a lot of history which is new to me. Right now I'm learning a lot about Aragon and Florence in the 1300's. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/06/2023 10:33 am
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Pillar of the Community
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2365 Posts |
Gold Florins are beautiful and a smart addition to any collection. I have a short series of Gold Sovereigns and I adore them.
I don't have any web links for you though. I usually buy from my local dealers.
Enjoy!!!! Please show us what you find and capture for your collection.
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Pillar of the Community
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I agree with you THQ on the idea of value and want to follow this thread not knowing much about Florins but interested.
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Pillar of the Community
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3342 Posts |
I managed to find a clipped Aragon (Valencia mint) florin in a holder that was affordable, and I'll put up pictures when it arrives. The rest of what I see is either out of my price range or very shabby-looking. All the Florentines and Dutch were way too expensive, and I didn't see any of the Hungarian forints for sale at all.
Aragon was an unusual kingdom, and appears to have been like a Mediterranean version of the Hanseatic League. From its base in the mountains west of Barcelona all the way to Greece it wielded a lot of influence for 400 years, until finally merging with Castile to form modern Spain. The Spanish shield we see on our coins and cobs is formed in quadrants, with the Aragon quarters distinguished by vertical lines.
I have never been in Aragon (best known now for the city of Zaragoza), but I was near it on a business trip years ago. I was told that the stripes are known as the Senyara "four fingers of blood", made by signing a treaty with stripes made from cut fingertips. They are alternated yellow and red on the Aragon shield and flag.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/06/2023 3:51 pm
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Pillar of the Community
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7933 Posts |
First question: when you say "florin" do you mean only the type with Saint John? Or any type fitting the weight and fineness standard? ('cause I'm not sure the Dutch issued many florins with Saint John, only ducats with the knight).
I don't yet have a "real" florin, but I do have a Hungarian version I acquired 20 years ago (the 14th c. St. John type, not the later St. Ladislaus type).
As well as a few later "florins" from the low countries featuring other saints (Andrew, Philip and Martin to be specific...but these do not meet the normal standard).
In addition to their historic interest, the real deal is attractive because they can often be dated to a specific year, back to the first days of the 1300s. Those will set you back a few bucks of course. I've bid on a few, but never won.
They are plentiful at the Italian auction houses. But you need to search on "Firenze fiorino" in acsearch (or Florenz to pick up the German auction houses).
If you wnat to find the types struck in Germany, search on goudgulden.
Likewise, if you want to find the Dutch version, search on dukaat (Dutch) and you will find plenty at Heritage Europe and Schulman. Or ducat for listings in English.
(maybe you know all this already if you have been poking around for a while).
Edited by tdziemia
03/06/2023 9:22 pm
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Pillar of the Community
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3342 Posts |
Thanks tdziemia. I'm interested in the early type with St. John and the flower that copy the Florentines. Please post a picture of your Hungarian piece. The Dutch pieces would be pre Spanish, and not the later dukaats.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/07/2023 09:50 am
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Pillar of the Community
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3342 Posts |
The word fiorino certainly helps in searching. I'd forgotten about CNG as a source, and they've sold many over the years. Not inexpensive, nor do they show up with any regularity, but it's a place to keep checking. https://www.cngcoins.com/Lots.aspx?...&VIEW_TYPE=0The Dutch florins come later and were made under the pre Spanish Burgundian rulers. They don't look like the Florence pieces, and are expensive and scarce. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/07/2023 09:58 am
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7933 Posts |
Here is my only "near florin," that is, made to same design and gold standard, but in a different country, Hungary. According to my notes, Huszar 512, struck 1342-1353 in Budapest. Purchased in 1999 for 300 euro (today's price perhaps triple that).   I have several of the Burgundian Netherlands "florins" (because that region is a main theme in my collection). These coins are struck to a lower standard (0.750 or thereabout, depending on the specific coin). Brabant, Charles the Bold - https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces109016.htmlBrabant, Philip the Fair - https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces141171.html (my coin in photo) Utrecht, David of Burgundy - https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces325293.html (my coin in photo, though not my photo) These types show up with some regularity in auctions at Jean Elsen and V. Schulman, which is where I purchased mine (over the last 20 years). Mine are not top condition, but still fairly attractive. At EF or better there's a strong premium, as you say. Again, when searching these types tend to be called a florin in Brabant, but goudgulden in Flanders (Vlaanderen) and Holland. I also like to buy from CNG whenever I can. I like not having to do the ROE calculations, I like the low shipping charge. Edited by tdziemia
03/08/2023 08:47 am
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Pillar of the Community
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3342 Posts |
Thanks tdziemia. A very nice example of what I wanted to see.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
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3342 Posts |
Here is my Pedro IV Aragon (Valencia mint) florin. It's underweight at 2.98 grams, but it is clipped and worn.   Compared to the Florentine coin it looks crude. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/11/2023 9:06 pm
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Pillar of the Community
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7933 Posts |
Super coin! I've never seen a piece of numismatic literatrue on the spread of the Florentine florin type, but I am sure that books and articles exist. For the places I collect (Low Countries, etc), there was a big lag from the time it was introduced in Florence (1252 if I recall correctly). In Flanders, Louis of Nevers hired a Pisan as his mintmaster in the 1330s, and the result was the first florin in those parts: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces310186.htmlBrabant followed within less than a year: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces308685.htmlIn each case, it was the first gold coin struck in those places, and I think the workmanship on those coins was comparable to Florence, but for some reason, the type didn't stick, and other gold coins of different sizes based on French ecus followed them within a few years. The later "florins" from the Low Countries that we discussed a bit earlier started in the Burgundian period, toward the end of the reign of Philip the Good, in the 1460s, and lasted until early in the reign of Charles V, in the 1520s. I may be going out on a limb, but I think they may have copied the goudguldens of the Rhineland which I think started a few decades earlier (@spence has at least one of those from the bishopric of Cologne). Hungary was on yet another timeline, with the Florentine type already present in the 1320s https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces49299.html (and my coin posted upthread), but the local Saint Ladislaus type then launched just a couple of decades later: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces51159.html That came to be an important type, because it was copied in the early days of the Dutch Republic (end of 16th century), https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces341872.htmlbut also (of all places!) in central Italy (!) where it was called an "Ongaro," https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces339388.htmlEnough to make your head spin... |
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3342 Posts |
The Venetian gold ducats appeared slightly later. They're the same weight as the florins, but are at a very high purity level. Both coin names have persisted for the last 750 years, though the ducats were predominant. Both coins were subject to debasement as the designs were reproduced in other countries. Numista reports that the Pedro IV Aragon florin is 750 fineness, while Venetian ducats were essentially pure gold.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/12/2023 1:47 pm
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Pillar of the Community
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7933 Posts |
Interesting that Aragon reduced the fineness but kept the Florentine design.
I think that practice is an outlier.
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Pillar of the Community
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3342 Posts |
Since making this post, I've located an early Venetian ducat, and have bids in on a couple of Aragon dinero. One thing leads to another....it makes for a haphazard but interesting coin accumulation....
It's interesting to me that ducats and florins become escudos and ecus a hundred years later. The same standard ca 3.5 gram weight for a gold trade coin. What similar-sized coins preceded the ducats and florins?
Here's my theory. The florins derived from the worn and debased trade dinar, which in turn derived from the worn and debased trade solidus. The florin became a gold weight standard for the next thousand years. The UK guinea has a weight of ca 2.5 florins, nearly the same as the US half eagle and UK sovereign.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/28/2023 12:35 pm
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Replies: 26 / Views: 3,539 |
Posted 03/06/2023 10:28 am
