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Die Engravers Eyesight

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 Posted 05/24/2023  06:35 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JumboP to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
The engravers of ancient coin dies did not have the benefit of enlargement lenses, yet were able to engrave readable letters a few mm high, and create recognisable portraits of, for example, roman emperors in many hundreds of iterations over many years. For example, the silver denarii of Hadrian show physical aging through his 20 year reign.
These engravers must have been very special and valued members of society, yet am I right in thinking we know almost nothing about them? And were they myopic?
I would be interested in any informed views on this issue, please.
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John1's Avatar
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 Posted 05/24/2023  06:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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 Posted 05/24/2023  3:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have any information for you but I can agree that they must have been highly skilled.

Consider the following coin:-

Die-Engravers-Eyesight

Here is an enlargement for the FOR area of the reverse legend and we can see the individual tooling marks within the letters

Die-Engravers-Eyesight

The fine detail work is amazing.
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 Posted 05/24/2023  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And were they myopic?
This is indeed one of the theories, though more for Greek than Roman coinage. As a myope myself, I certainly feel like it sounds plausible!

AFAIK a few Greek types where the dies apparently included engraver signatures are known (especially from Syracuse), though it's still a rare exception and most dies were unsigned; offhand I can't think of any Roman examples, but I wouldn't say for sure that there are none.

IIRC it's suspected that sometimes different people might have worked on busts and lettering on the same die. I'm not very confident though.
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 Posted 05/24/2023  5:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The November 1997 issue of The Celator contained a pertinent, interesting article "Did Ancient Celators Use Magnifying Lenses?" It's downloadable from:

https://social.vcoins.com/files/fil...vember-1997/

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 Posted 05/25/2023  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sometimes we forget how sharp our eyesight was in our youth. I assume that is at least part of the equation.
Edited by Kushanshah
05/25/2023 12:19 am
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 Posted 05/25/2023  09:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sometimes we forget how sharp our eyesight was in our youth. I assume that is at least part of the equation.
I have to agree. I did not require glasses until I was in my mid 40s. I remember when I could clearly see the VDB on Lincoln's shoulder with my naked eye.
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 Posted 06/29/2023  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add circusmax120 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I recently stumbled upon this beauty of a Titus As. The realism of the portrait immediately attracted my attention, and I began to study the details. I was stunned! The level of skill demonstrated by the nameless artist is truly awe inspiring!
Die-Engravers-Eyesight
All the points of realism that have impressed me on other coins are present here...but it is one singular subtlety that really floored me. The delicate line delineating the nostril: separating the columella from nasal alae.
Die-Engravers-Eyesight
On a face that cannot measure too much more that 10mm!!

Was this ancient engraver simply an extraordinary myopic? Or was a lens/crystal used?

In the published article linked by Kamnaskires (thank you, Bob!), author Bart Lewis writes:

"Perhaps the most important discovery was a Roman period magnifying lens discovered in 1854 in the "House of the Engraver" on the Stabian Way in Pompeii."

"I personally feel it is most unrealistic to assume that during the first millennium BC no one would have looked through a lens or polished gem at a small object and not noticed its magnifying properties. Rather, it is far more reasonable to assume that the practical use of such an image magnifier was simply not generally appreciated or written about."

"So perhaps we will never be able to prove conclusively that the ancients used lenses, especially in any commercial endeavor, for their magnifying properties. But my denarii say they did."
(Page 41 of the November 1997 edition of The Celator)

When these coins speak...perhaps it is wise to listen.


Edited by circusmax120
06/29/2023 12:53 pm
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Kamnaskires's Avatar
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 Posted 06/29/2023  1:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kamnaskires to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep, that's skillful work there. Titus - and Vespasian too - had such great profiles - and this particular die engraver did justice to Titus' profile. I would love to have drawn either one of them from life.
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 Posted 06/29/2023  1:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add circusmax120 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ahhh yes...indeed, Bob. My nerves would no doubt cause my hand to shake! The trick, you see, is to draw an emperor from life...and manage to keep your own.
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 Posted 06/30/2023  9:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jecz79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
See also this done 3500 years ago in ancient Greece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos_Combat_Agate

Found in Pylos, possibly done in Crete. Could it be done without some magnifying glass?

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