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 Replies: 16 / Views: 1,395 |
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Valued Member
France
322 Posts |
I won this tetradrachm in an auction and I am wondering whether keeping it or not. What, in your opinion, happened to it? It has been tooloed, clearly, at least to repair a break of the coin. But do you think that the details also have been sharpened by tooling? And what is in your view the loss of value of the coin in its present condition? Thank you in advance for your comments.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
I would run away from the seller screaming.bloody forgers, they now imitate repairing coins.
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Valued Member
 France
322 Posts |
Why do you say that this is a forgery, if I may ask?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7066 Posts |
Certainly authentic, although I wouldn't be surprised if the entire chip repair is a restoration. There may be some smoothing in the fields, and I wonder if some of the finer lines in Poseidon's hair have been enhanced. You could check concordance with the details of other examples (that have no apparent tooling) from the same dies. For example, I think this may be an obverse die match to yours: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=9405698Most details of the hair match up with your Poseidon, but there may be some small deviation in one or two spots. Of course, even lines that match up perfectly could have been enhanced. Having said all this, yours is still a stunning coin of fine style, in my opinion. |
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Valued Member
France
322 Posts |
Thank you Kamnaskires for your reply. I have to say that now that I am considering attentively the question, I am a little bit puzzled about the reverse, where there is clearly a line that is missing behind Apollo and that is present on all the other types I considered , the line that prolonges the line of the boat. It is clearly there on your example.
Do you see what I mean?
And the surface shows no trace of worn, which is strange.
But perhaps I am too cautious.
Best,
Claude
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Quote:
Why do you say that this is a forgery, if I may ask? A third of the coin was remade. That portion all around the filled crack. Someone smoothed it afterwards, very crudely. I think all that metal is foreign. Not just the filling in the obvious crack that appears repaired. The portion that would appear to be original. It has far to much detail, like it was new, and lack of bumps and other harm. For the coin to have been broken, force had to be exerted on that portion also. Leverage is needed to break metal. It had to leave marks. But there are no marks of such a force in this remainder of the coin. There is pitting, most visible in the forehead, but the rest seems fine and shows no such pitting. So I think it is not just repaired. There is more that is not right. Just from a photo I will not try to guess how this thing was produced. But would run from it. . |
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Valued Member
France
322 Posts |
Thank you for your comments, Jecz79. Although I have my douts, I am not sure to agree with yours. I don't have the coin in hands now, so I am not sure of anything. But I am not sure that the third of the coin was remade, as you say. One of the pieces, that above the head, is clearly original, since there is still the engraving of the hair of Poseidon. Perhaps a very small part was actually replaced, and, I agree, in a very crude manner, with a lot of smoothing. As for the surface of the coin, with this kind of picture, it appears very strange. But if you compare it to other exemplars of the same series, you can see that, for this series, the silver has resisted very well the passage of time and is still almost intact. So, this is not necessarily a sign that the coin (or the main part of it) is not original. See the pictures for other exemplars.    |
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Valued Member
France
322 Posts |
For those who are interested in the end of this story : I finally decided to write Yves Gunzenreiner, the director of LEU numismatik, to ask for his extertise. He believes that this coin is a modern forgery. So, well done Jecz79, you were probably right! The Auction House will have to keep the coin. To collect ancients is sometimes really a challenge - but an exciting one!
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Thank you for the update. I also did not like the letters.But that alone I think should not condemn an ancient coin.
In a wild guess from me, this may have started as a museum reproduction marked as such. And the damage seeks to hide that. Because it is strange that a forger wanting to fool collects would create a damaged coin from the start.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Just an additional piece of info to add. I believe this example is an obverse and reverse die match for the coin in question. As you will see that line on the reverse is also missing. There did appear to be several examples where it was absent https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=934351(while I am loathe to contradict Leu, if I were to stick my neck out, I must say I would have guessed your coin was genuine. If I were you I'd post it on FORVM and see if you could ask Din X what he thinks of it) Regards, Derek Edited by Valecrucis
11/21/2023 8:02 pm
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Valued Member
France
322 Posts |
I must say that I am troubled by your example, Valecrucis.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Perhaps you should contact CNG about it, Ancient67. I am sure they'd be interested to know
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Valued Member
France
322 Posts |
You're right, I am in contact with them, I will try.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Ugh! I now feel obliged to admit there was a little sarcasm in my previous comment as I wouldn't wish to accidentally send you on a fool's errand. I do think it entirely reasonable to contact CNG to answer questions about your coin and perhaps seek reassurance. I would not contact CNG to let them know that their coin is fake without solid reasons for doing so (and I do not believe there are any solid reasons to believe that at all) unless you have their coin in hand or are someone like David Sear. Sorry if my sarcasm, which was meant to be mostly harmless and apparent, misled you
Regards,
Valecrucis
Edited by Valecrucis
11/22/2023 07:29 am
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Valued Member
France
322 Posts |
Well, the problem is in any case that I have to take a decision, because there is an invoice to pay. So, since there are still doubts, there isn't really for me another option than to renounce buying it. I cannot pay 600 euros for a coin without being almost 100% certain of its authenticity. Of course there remains always a small amount of doubt, but it is too hight for me in this case.
Thank you for your help!
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Absolutely, I understand. And for what it's worth, the fact that the coin appears to have broken and been repaired would, for me, be reason enough (at that price) to seek a way to avoid it
I hope you find a good resolution
All the best,
Valecrucis
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Replies: 16 / Views: 1,395 |
Posted 11/16/2023 06:42 am
