Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsVancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall 300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

1865 3 Cent For Grade And Evaluation

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 24 / Views: 1,554Next Topic
Page: of 2
Pillar of the Community

United States
959 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2023  8:48 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Blastenpene4 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
OK, I admit I'm a sucker for coins with Cuds. I thought this was interesting. In my research I saw that a lot of 1865 3 cent pieces are weakly struck between 4 and 6 on the obverse and correspondingly on the reverse - just as this coin is. I also saw some earlier die state examples where the obverse die was breaking in this area, but this must be a fairly late die state with this more extreme Cud. I also really liked the die clash. Not really a coin in my wheelhouse and I'm curious as to the reaction to sellers's pics. Not great pictures and I do not have the coin in hand yet.
1865-3-Cent-For-Grade-And-Evaluation
1865-3-Cent-For-Grade-And-Evaluation
Edited by Blastenpene4
11/30/2023 9:28 pm
Bedrock of the Community
paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2023  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AU55. Slight trace of rub. That's quite an impressive die break, even by the standards of the coin type.

Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Bedrock of the Community
Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2023  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree, about AU-55.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Brandmeister's Avatar
United States
6542 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2023  10:02 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As a rookie at classics, I'm a bit puzzled by this coin. The hair detail is phenomenal. Except at the very ends, that flat spot looks heavily worn. Grease Filled Die, perhaps? The tiara also has some smearing of the orbs close to the crown, but is that die wear or circulation wear?

The reverse also seems strong, except for the second upper right leaf. But I see on comps for that year that many MS coins have the vein missing on the leaf.

To me, it looks MS 63-64, but that is a very shaky guess made purely for practice.

It's a lovely coin, though! The die clash is definitely cool. Looks like there might be some doubling on the top tips of the III as well?
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Brandmeister's Avatar
United States
6542 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2023  10:03 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now seeing that the pros are posting an AU grade, I'm guessing that the mentioned spots can be identified as wear, not die state?
Bedrock of the Community
paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2023  10:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grading is subjective. As you noted, things such as clash, die state, die defects, off-center strikes, misaligned dies, grease, etc. can all change the appearance of a coin and make it appear to be a lower grade than it actually is.

I've got no way of knowing if it ever actually changed hands, or went straight from the Mint into a coin collector's cabinet...

That being said, the presence of a few light hairlines and a few areas that show a bit of gunk buildup or spotting would suggest the former.

You could show this coin to 20 different professional graders at PCGS, NGC, or ANACS and some would say AU and some would say Unc. It's just the nature of the game.

Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Bedrock of the Community
Errers and Varietys's Avatar
United States
74592 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2023  11:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll say AU. Nice Cud!
Errers and Varietys.
Pillar of the Community
United States
959 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2023  11:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Blastenpene4 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I really wonder about the light strike at 4-6 Obv and 12-2 Rev. The end letters of "America" are weakly struck, as is the "5." Reverse shows leaves at 12-2 poorly struck. I looked around a bit and this is not uncommon for 1865, apparently. I have not seen another Obverse Cud like this, but I'm sure they're out there. Just was an interesting coin, and not very expensive.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Brandmeister's Avatar
United States
6542 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2023  12:30 am  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So is it one of the four die clashes listed on MDC?

http://www.maddieclashes.com/atypic...-three-cent/
Bedrock of the Community
numismatic student's Avatar
United States
11898 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2023  02:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 1865 3 cent nickel is an important transitional coin. It was the realization of a vision of 19th century industrialist Joseph Wharton who was a Philadelphia Quaker that went on to be one of the founders of Bethlehem Steel and the Wharton School of Business. He also had interests in nickel mines, a metal which was much harder than gold, silver and copper, the traditional metals for coinage. He lobbied Congress for years for the government to buy his nickel for the production of coinage. The 1865 3cn was his triumph in this endeavor. That's the reason for the weak strikes. The mint was only beginning to coin nickel alloys, and it all began with the 3 cent nickel which was 75% copper and only 25% nickel. The dies made by the mint weren't hard enough to strike these thin tiny and hard coins and the dies would wear out very quickly. This coin was the humble beginning of nickel in the history of our coinage. The 5 cent nickel would be introduced later in 1866.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS
THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com
Edited by numismatic student
12/01/2023 02:59 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
959 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2023  09:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Blastenpene4 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Brandmeister, thanks for that link. None of these varieties seems to be a complete match, but I'll be able to evaluate much better once I have the coin in hand. I will post new pics then. Nobody has mentioned the obverse rim at about 10. I can't tell if this is damage of some sort - this was my only hesitation on the coin. That said, it was just a darned interesting coin that I couldn't resist at the price.
Edited by Blastenpene4
12/01/2023 09:53 am
Pillar of the Community
psuman08's Avatar
United States
1776 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2023  10:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add psuman08 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
numismatic student is right on - great background. Cool Cud for sure. I'd have this at 53-55 range.
Bedrock of the Community
IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
United States
36826 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2023  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Easy AU-55 leaning towards 58.
Bedrock of the Community
numismatic student's Avatar
United States
11898 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2023  9:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Adding that the 1865 nickel was not the first use of nickel in U.S. coinage. That came in 1856 when the copper-nickel small cents replaced the then ubiquitous large cents, also due to the efforts of Joseph Wharton. The 1865 3cn is the first white metal nickel coin issued as regular coinage. The 1856-1864 copper-nickel cents were copper-colored but contained 12% nickel or less than half of the 25% in the 3cn. But this coin is clearly the precursor of what we all know as the U.S. 5c nickel.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS
THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
My coin website:https://fairfaxcoins.com
Pillar of the Community
fenton's Avatar
United States
4989 Posts
 Posted 12/02/2023  09:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Either AU-58 or MS-62. It's a really nice looking coin and tough to tell from these photos whether we're looking at strike issues or some trace rub.
Pillar of the Community
United States
959 Posts
 Posted 12/02/2023  10:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Blastenpene4 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll post pictures when I have it in hand. I'm also curious to check out the apparent die doubling at the top of the "III," as Brandmeister commented on. Doesn't look like Machine Doubling, but pictures are pretty hard to evaluate.
  Previous TopicReplies: 24 / Views: 1,554Next Topic
Page: of 2

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.45 seconds to rattle this change. Forums