Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. 300,000 items to help build your collection! Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin Auctions








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Sketchy 1806 Half Penny

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 26 / Views: 2,016Next Topic
Page: of 2
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
HondoB's Avatar
United States
25401 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2024  10:47 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add HondoB to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
This coin was in a lot that I purchased last year. I had put it away to deal with later, and came across it this weekend. It looks suspicious to me, but I don't have another with which to compare it. Weight = 9.14 g as opposed to 9.45 g listed on Numista. Diameter is correct at 28.70 mm but 2.05 mm thick instead of 1.5 mm.
All comments welcome - thank you!
Sketchy-1806-Half-Penny
Sketchy-1806-Half-Penny
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Brandmeister's Avatar
United States
6542 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2024  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, if it's thicker than normal but has an identical diameter, that should result in a higher volume than normal. If the density were the same because the alloy is the same, that then suggests that your coin should be heavier than average. But it isn't. Your coin is underweight. I would be quite suspicious about that.
Pillar of the Community
PaddyB's Avatar
United Kingdom
945 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2024  05:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Certainly sounds odd. But why would anyone fake a common coin in such low quality? Unless it is a contemporary forgery in pewter then bronzed?
Bedrock of the Community
NumisRob's Avatar
United Kingdom
17967 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2024  05:20 am  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks OK to me, and even in 1806 it would hardly have been worthwhile to make an accurate forgery of one of these 'new' halfpennies, as the pre-1776 halfpennies that were still in circulation were much easier to forge (and there were lots of forgeries in circulation). I don't know if anyone's ever done a detailed study of these coins, but I'd imagine that there could have been variations in the planchette thickness and weight, as it was the first date of a radically redesigned coin and the cons were not struck by The Royal Mint but were contracted out to the Soho Mint in Birmingham. Wikipedia gives the weight of these halfpennies as "9.2-9.8 grams", indicating that there may be a considerable variation.
Bedrock of the Community
paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2024  08:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not personally aware of any widely known counterfeits of the Soho issues (although they may exist) but the coin displays quite a bit of porosity that may have resulted in the weight being towards the bottom end of normal. The planchets were not of the best quality to begin with.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
HondoB's Avatar
United States
25401 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2024  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HondoB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for the replies, especially NumisRob for the information!
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
Valued Member
United Kingdom
69 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2024  06:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Safi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is my best 1806 that weighs 9.5 g , 28.5 mm and 2.5 thickness, I also have ones that weigh much less, I think it also depends on the wear of the coin itself some are as low as 8.8, but this one has a beautiful patina.
Sketchy-1806-Half-Penny
Sketchy-1806-Half-Penny
Valued Member
United Kingdom
387 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2024  04:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spyro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm intrigued! I've got what I think is a contemporary forgery. It's dated 1806 but on a 1799-sized 31mm blank and under weight for that size blank at 9.2 grams. Edge detail the same as Hondo's. It's just this minute occurred to me that as the 1806 series was struck because price of copper went through the roof, perhaps Matthew Boulton was trying a few ideas out. Or perhaps somebody with inside information was "trying it on", which is my current bet. Who knows? I feel a visit to Brum Museum might come in handy...
Bedrock of the Community
paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2024  12:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Spyro, would you be able to share photos sometime? I'm quite interested to see it.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Valued Member
United Kingdom
387 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2024  03:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spyro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes. It's about 7.15am here so I'll try to upload some pics in about 12 hours - busy day ahead!
Valued Member
United Kingdom
387 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2024  11:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spyro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Sketchy-1806-Half-Penny
Sketchy-1806-Half-Penny
Sketchy-1806-Half-Penny
So... Here's 3 pics of my peculiar half penny. My metal detector doesn't think it's lead or nickel or tin. It's not very well struck. Could it have been a trial piece of some sort? A smaller blank would have been thicker so would take a harder strike. What are your thoughts?
Bedrock of the Community
paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2024  2:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Quite an odd duck. It looks almost as though it were somewhat flattened. Very soft strike, for sure. It has the expected concavity and engrailed edge.

Given the persistent issues Boulton & Watt had with getting good quality planchets at Soho it may just be due to soft copper that would have resulted in spreading and consequentially a weak strike since the striking force was being applied over a larger surface area.

According to Peck, 1806-dated dies were still in use after 1806 and were kept in use concurrently alongside 1807- and 1808-dated dies, so that merits being taken into consideration here as well.

Trial strike is a possibility but the only thing even close would be the 3rd issue G.III Soho halfpenny (1799) at 30mm/12.6g and this is too underweight so I'm going to cast a vote in favor of the former theory.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Edited by paralyse
03/21/2024 2:18 pm
Valued Member
United Kingdom
387 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2024  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spyro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks. I'm also wondering if MB had been working out whether it was best to have a wider thinner blank, cos mine's the right weight for an 1806 halfpenny, or a smaller thicker one. The wider one, however, is almost as wide as the 1806 penny so could have been mistaken for one. Not a good outcome.
Bedrock of the Community
paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2024  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Anything's possible!

One thing I would take into consideration would be if there are any other known examples matching your coin's specifications, which might lend more credence to the possibility of a pattern issue or trial strike.

There were proofs issued (gilt copper/gilt bronze) but they are always fully struck up in addition to being rather scarce.

It wouldn't be too far out of the ordinary if it were found to be a trial piece. Both Heaton's Birmingham Mint and Soho Mint struck a staggeringly large number of different token and coin designs and there are dozens of tokens known with muled obverse/reverse dies, overstrikes on existing tokens, halfpennies struck on penny-sized planchets, etc.

If you fancy a good sit and read you can look up 'The Soho Mint & the Industrialization of Money' (Spink: Doty, R. 1998) or 'Matthew Boulton and the Soho Mint - Copper to Customer' (Brewin: Tungate, S. 2020); Tungate has an appendix with lists of weights and measures for all the coins and tokens described therein. The canonical reference is Charles Wilson Peck's 'English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum 1558-1958' (first issued in 1964.) I don't have copies in my own library, sadly.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Valued Member
United Kingdom
387 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2024  03:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spyro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks for that info. I've got Sue Tungate's book and though it mentions an 1806 halfpenny it's the 28mm one, and I have one of those. I'll put pics up for comparison. You'll see why I originally thought it was a forgery cos the strike isn't brilliant, so perhaps MB thought why roll the copper out that thin when I can get as many (and possibly better quality) units out of a sheet for less work if they're smaller and thicker? Looks like I'll have to get a copy of Doty...
Bedrock of the Community
paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2024  12:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 1806 issues proved rather more difficult to counterfeit thanks to the combination of the engrailed edge and the concave planchet, as well as Mr. Boulton's absolute insistence on maintaining strict tolerances for weight and diameter, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility that it's a fake. Soho was definitely turning a profit on genuine coins so there would have been a financial incentive for counterfeiters as well.

The cartwheel penny was counterfeited via mold casting as Herr Küchler's design had proved difficult to recreate by the forgers' die-sinkers. Lead casts were copper-washed. They were very soft and easily damaged in addition to being very mushy.

I've heard rumors that some were actually die-struck counterfeits using "recycled" well-worn genuine Soho penny planchets, but have never personally seen one.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
  Previous TopicReplies: 26 / Views: 2,016Next Topic
Page: of 2

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.39 seconds to rattle this change. Forums