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Brazilian 960 Reis: Struck Over A Colonial 8 Reales

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jfransch's Avatar
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 07/14/2009  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The book was a 500 copy limited edition so I am not sure you'll find one cheap. But it has great info on this really interesting series of coins. I always examine 960's that I see for sale and it is amazing how many can be found with traces of the host coin. I want one stuck over a Potosi Sunface but haven't found one with enough host coin showing to warrant the premium price.
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Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 07/14/2009  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob- thanks for the email address! I'll try to shoot him a pm in the near future.

It is a shame that it only had a print run of 500. You would think that there would have been more demand for it.
New Member
United States
2 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2009  12:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeanieb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hi guys! I was just researching the 3 patacas.. I think I found this at our cottage in canada. I have some questions! I think these images I'm posting are high quality, at least I can view them that way. I was wondering if anyone could decipher what the "host" coin is?

so I believe from what I've read that this is a 960 reis from 1816. someone however decided to make it into a small bowl? I don't know if anyone's ever seen anything like it but I am totally open to questions and answers!! I was so excited at the possibility of owning a real antique, although it looks like it may be worthless as a bowl!

ALSO if the images dont show up large enough or correctly let me know and I can email them to you. my computer is allowing me to zoom in over 100% and it's still very clear and I can make out so much more of the faded original coin but I have no idea what I'm looking for.

thanks in advance for any input!

Brazilian-960-Reis:-Struck-Over-A-Colonial-8-Reales

Brazilian-960-Reis:-Struck-Over-A-Colonial-8-Reales

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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16830 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2009  05:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen coins made into bowls before, both genuine coins and imitation coins made specifically for inserting. It seems to be a Latin American thing; I haven't seen it too often from Europe or Asia.

I don't know what kind of damage might have been done to the coin during the process of attaching the bowl, but it's unlikely to be removable without some damage. I suspect it wouldn't be worthwhile trying.

In any case, the shield visible through the "cross side" of the coin is clearly Spanish-American, and from what I can tell, of Spanish king Charles IV (issued between 1790 and 1808). Unfortunately, the date appears to be obscured, from those pics anyway (which are quite good) but I'm pretty sure I can see the Mexico City mintmark.

The date should be somewhere near or under the BRASD on the shield side; the mintmark, an "M" with a small "O" above it, is just above the "S" of SIGN. The mintmaster's initials, two letters like "F.M.", would be underneath the word "SIGN".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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manila galleon trade's Avatar
Spain
1361 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2009  06:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manila galleon trade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
nice coin, nice thread, nice info, very interesting
New Member
United States
2 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2009  09:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jeanieb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thank you guys so much for your input! the story of these coins is so intriguing!

the sheild side is so filthy :/ I can't make out any markings near the BRAS D except for maybe a small mark under the S. on the other side I see what could be an 8 under the I in SIGN, perhaps a II or an H under the N, and something to the left of the S but I cant make out what it is.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2009  11:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with SAP - the bowl with a coin bottom was very popular at one time. The earlier examples used real coins but the jewelers who made the bowls figured out they could substitute a fake coin fairly early on. So counterfeit (replica might be a better name) are common as well. In this case the coin looks real - mostly because of the clear under type. I would leave it just as is. When these coins were soldered into the base of the bowl the edge was usually destroyed in the attachment process. In some cases, the dentils that are visible are actually part of the attachment process (I suspect that could be the case here). In addition, the coin was polished and wear on the bottom of the bowl has further compromised the "coin". Removal of the coin would destroy any value as a Numismatic item. It is far more valuable AS IS.

I also completely agree with SAP that the original host is Mexican - the mint mark is clear if you flip over the picture. You can also pick out part of the T first assayer initial. That does peg the coin as an 1803 to 1808 issue.

The dies used for the 960 strike are from Rio de Janeiro which had substantial mintages. So I have no reason to doubt that the coin is anything but original.
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jfransch's Avatar
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2009  4:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are a couple of my favorites. First is an 1818R struck over an 1816LmJp Spanish Colonial 8 reale from Lima. The full date is showing as well as the most of the obverse legend. On the reverse, the assayer JP identifies the host coin as Lima mintage.
The second is an 1819R struck over an 1812 Spanish colonial 8. The full host coin date is at the top of the image between 12 and 1 o'clock.

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...200981_1.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...200981_2.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...200981_3.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...200981_4.jpg
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manila galleon trade's Avatar
Spain
1361 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2009  09:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manila galleon trade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
jfransch, those are really nice 960 reis with very strong remnants of the 8 reales.
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jfransch's Avatar
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 08/09/2009  6:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since we were talking about 960s and their host coins, I thought I would point out that the cover coin from the Levy book we have been discussing is going up for auction on 9/8/09 in a Goldberg auction. It's the most incredible overstrike I have ever personally held in my amazed little hand. The host coin is a 1799/8 US bust dollar and you can make out large parts of the host coin including the full date. I am posting scans of the cover for those interested in this amazing piece of history

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...Front001.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...rBack002.jpg
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